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S class

South Africa
955 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2013 :  13:01:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brian, agreed the outer sills are not structural, but it gets interesting when outer sill rust is accompanied by rot in parts of the adjoining inner sill and floor. WHen that kind of surgery is required, I think proper support such as welding temporary steel across a,b and c posts is called for.



116.036
116.036
116.024
116.028
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107.044
202.026




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etmerritt33

USA
1415 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2013 :  13:20:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ArciJack, Thanks for the tip!! Tom
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ctmaher

USA
677 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2013 :  14:01:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually, the outer rocker panel is structural. When combined with the inner rocker, they form a box tube that creates part of the structure of the unibody. The reason the car doesn't collapse even with rusted outer and inner rockers is because of the roof. Cut the roof off and the car would fold in half. I had this happen on a parts car I cut up with rust in the rockers right behind the rear doors. As far as welding in braces, I don't think it's necessary as long as the inner rockers, roof and A,B and C pillars are all there.

Chris
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S class

South Africa
955 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2013 :  13:16:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ctmaher

As far as welding in braces, I don't think it's necessary as long as the inner rockers, roof and A,B and C pillars are all there.

Chris



Agreed, but often the inner sills have areas of rot that require big chunks to be cut out.



116.036
116.036
116.024
116.028
116.028
107.044
202.026




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alabbasi

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2013 :  20:48:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wbrian63

The sills are not structural.

Given the massive amount of internal rust that are present in mine, if they were structural, the car would have already sagged in on itself...



The car would sag if you put it on a 2 post lift.

With best regards

Al


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tylerh860

30 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  22:14:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Will you be working feverishly over the holidays?

85 500SL Euro, 85 300D, 04 E500 Wagon
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wbrian63

USA
901 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2013 :  22:50:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hope to. car is almost ready to rotate on the rotisserie picks soon....

W. Brian Fogarty

'02 S55 AMG (W220)
'92 300SE (W140) - sold
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #1164 - parted & gone
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #521

"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people, and most of them seemed to come from Texas..." Casino Royale, Chapter VII
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wbrian63

USA
901 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2014 :  22:28:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Feverish work over the holidays ended up just being "feverish."

Started feeling poorly the Monday prior to Christmas. Spent Christmas day under the covers and off to the Dr. on the 26th. Short visit, several prescriptions later and finally emerged into public view on Dec 31...

Still, since the last major posting, I was able to construct and attach a rotisserie to the chassis, and the pictures that follow show that it is indeed possible to flip a W116 chassis "up on edge"

There are several designs for rotisseries out on the web, but most of them are being used on cars far smaller and lighter than a W116. I took several design aspects from each of the examples I found on places like GarageJournal.com and elsewhere and came up with my own design.

In order to effectively rotate a car of this size, you must first obviously get it up in the air sufficiently high enough to rotate without the rockers hitting the floor. To do this, I'm using a pair of worm-gear-driven winches I got from Harbor Freight. They're rated at 2,000# each.

They're attached to a piece of "receiver tube", which is a 2-1/2" square tube with a 1/4" walls that has had the welding seam broached out of the inside such that it slips easily over a 2" OD square tube.

I could have purchased seamless tubing, or fashioned a grinding stone to do the broaching myself, but I found two 3' lengths of receiver tube on Amazon.com for about $50 each, which was more than enough for the needs of this project.



You can see the holes in the winch trolley, and holes in the vertical strut. This allows for a 5/8" pin to be placed to allow the weight of the car to be removed from the cable and winch. I put 3 holes in the trolley at 1" and 2" separation thinking it would give me some variability for position. Sadly, I failed to consider that when loaded, the trolley wouldn't sit perfectly perpendicular to the vertical strut, so none of the holes line up. I need to ream out the holes in the vertical strut about 1/16" inch to cure this problem. In the mean time, putting the pin in position in a hole below the trolley and resting the trolley there is more than sufficient.

The cable from the winch travels up and over a cast-iron roller designed for rolling gates - about $10 each from my local steel supplier:



The advantage of this method is that the lifting force is somewhat balanced - the pull comes from the front where the cable is attached, and the back where the cable wraps around the winch hub.

With a worm-gear drive, there's no need for a brake.

To allow for a balanced rotation, there has to be a way to offset the chassis center of gravity from the rotational centerline of the rotisserie. This is done by allowing the lifting arm to slide in another piece of receiver tube, positioning controlled by a 1/2" piece of all-thread passing through a coupling nut welded to the rotation head. The end of the all thread has a nut welded to the end, and a needle-bearing thrust washer assembly to take the load and allow for smooth rotation minimal risk of galling.

In this picture, you can see two of the 4 pinch bolts to allow the lifting arm to be locked securely in position. Each welded nut accepts a 1/2" bolt. You can also see the single nut on the rotation hub to allow the rotation to be locked - also accepting a 1/2" bolt.

To make sure there's no damage to the rotation hub, there's a groove cut into the internal sleeve that's welded to the lifting arm assembly. It's about 3/4" wide and .050 deep. This keeps the lifting arm from sliding out of the lifting trolley in addition to allowing the rotation to be locked.



I didn't want to make the rotisserie ends as permanent fixtures, so the vertical strut is attached to the horizontal foot with bolts and a 1/4" thick 18" wide x 12" tall triangle brace. That keeps the strut from leaning side to side. To keep it from pitching forward, I built a "kick stand" that braces against the reinforcing ring at the front of another piece of 2-1/2" receiver tube. The receiver tube at the bottom allows a long (very long) piece of 2" square tube to connect the front and back of the rotisserie together.



When I originally started attaching the rotisserie to the car, I built some attachment brackets that I bolted to the mounting wings that supported the rear bumper. This ended up being a bad idea - there's enough slop in the way the 2-1/2" tube slides over the 2" tube that the assembly was twisting when I'd lift the rear of the car. This risked distorting the body where the mounting wings passed through the unibody structure.

The solution was to make longer arms that would reach nearly 3 feet up under the car and allow me to build some adapter blocks that bolt to the body where the rear sway bar attached. This is a very solid mounting point with no risk of distortion.



To control the position of the car relational to the rotisserie center as the car was turned on edge, and also to limit the amount of sag in the lifting arm, I crafted a couple of stand-off blocks that mounted in place of the bumper mounts. I connected these blocks together with a welded horizontal brace with diagonal stiffeners.



The front attachment point isn't ideal - it's just a pair of mounting blocks attached where the front bumper braces attach at the edge. I am seeing some give in the attachment point, and I've not decided whether it's worrisome enough to warrant designing a similar lifting frame for the front for the small amount of time the car will be on the rotisserie. The attachment point is just a few inches off the edge of the front lifting bar, so the distortion is minimal.

So, without further delay - the pictures of the car on in the air. You can see the front attachment point for the driver's side at the bottom left-hand corner of the picture.


This has the car almost 3 feet off the floor.

Initial rotational tests showed the car was top-heavy, so I lowered the car in the balancing frames and tried again. Then it was too bottom heavy, but I'd prefer it want to come back to "normal" orientation, so it will remain where it currently sits.

And here it is on edge. Note that all it took was a determined tug on the end of the lifting arm to make this rotational change. No cheater bar or additional leverage was required.


And an alternate view:



The fuel pump, differential and rear suspension:


Middle of the undercarriage:


And front of the undercarriage:


W. Brian Fogarty

'02 S55 AMG (W220)
'92 300SE (W140) - sold
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #1164 - parted & gone
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #521

"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people, and most of them seemed to come from Texas..." Casino Royale, Chapter VII
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Art Love

Australia
6237 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  00:23:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brian,

Sorry to hear you were unwell. Best wishes for 2014. My reason for posting is to say that I have made this topic "sticky", so it will stay at the top of the 6.9 Forum. I have also gone down to page 17 and made Bill's Strut rebuild article "sticky". I would be grateful for advice from any of the 6.9 people on this Forum regarding whether there are other 6.9 threads which they think it would be helpful to keep at the top. I've done it a bit in the 600 and 6.3 Forums as well as my time has allowed. I'm happy for advice there as well.

Art
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arcijack

USA
476 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  08:34:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
very nice set up, you have a genius mind.
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etmerritt33

USA
1415 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  10:54:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any guess as to what the body weighs without the drivetrain?? Just wish I were there as an apprentice helper. I could learn a ton just by watching. IMHO fabulous work. Got my first angle grinder and Scotch pads you used on this project for Christmas based on what I learned from following this thread.
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wbrian63

USA
901 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  12:13:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not a clue as to weight.

According to the MB manual, the curb weight of a 6.9 is 1990kg, or 4390#.

I do know that the M-100 motor is seriously heavy. I'm thinking engine and transmission together are about 800#.

The winches I got from Harbor Freight are typical crap Chinese-made items, but they don't seem to be struggling to lift the weight. They're rated at 2,000# each.

All that PVC undercoat from the front fenders is good for at least 300 or 400# .

I've taken almost the entire interior out of the car - all that remains is the carpet, headliner and dash.

The exhaust and drive shaft are also out, obviously from the pics.

Quick math:

Curb Weight 4390
Less Doors (200)
Less Seats (75)
Less Hood (75)
Less Fenders (50)
Less Exhaust (75)
Less Bumpers (150)
Less Engine (700)
Less Trans (100)
Less Drive Shaft (75)
Balance 2890

Somewhere I once remember reading that someone had weighed an M-100, and I did try to find that information when I was building the engine stand but was unable to do so. My guesstimate may be waaay off.

When it's all said and done, the car will be heavier than when I started when you take into account all of the rust I'll be replacing with solid metal .

W. Brian Fogarty

'02 S55 AMG (W220)
'92 300SE (W140) - sold
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #1164 - parted & gone
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #521

"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people, and most of them seemed to come from Texas..." Casino Royale, Chapter VII

Edited by - wbrian63 on 01/02/2014 12:15:32
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etmerritt33

USA
1415 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2014 :  13:05:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That looks very close but is heavier than I would have thought. Now, all you need is a huge electrolysis tank, I am going to start my first electrolysis experiment this pm. Hope to be able to de-rust small car parts once I test my system. Also, getting some small carbon rods to use as anodes. http://www.mcmaster.com/#7979a19/=q2u831.
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wbrian63

USA
901 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  07:15:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Keep us posted on your electrolysis progress.

Isn't McMaster a fantastic company to work with?

I buy all sorts of stuff from them.

W. Brian Fogarty

'02 S55 AMG (W220)
'92 300SE (W140) - sold
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #1164 - parted & gone
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #521

"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people, and most of them seemed to come from Texas..." Casino Royale, Chapter VII
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wbrian63

USA
901 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2014 :  07:24:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yesterday, I was able to move the car in the shop. This is a good thing, as with the added length of the rotisserie frames, it was impossible for me to walk around the car at the front. To get from one side to the other, I had to walk around the table saw table, which adds 50+ feet by the time I circumnavigate.

Just like a dropped jelly sandwich always lands jelly side down, when the shortest distance between two points is a long walk, you're forever needing something that's on the other side of the car.

Once I get the sills off the car, I need to move it out into the lot in front of the shop to do a bit of spot sand-blasting. The problem with that plan is the design of the rotisserie.

The cross beam that connects the front and rear assemblies is too close to the ground. I can solve this by putting spacers between the casters and the frame, but at some point it would just be easier to reconstruct the base of the frames to raise the cross beam.

The floor of the shop sits 8+ inches above the parking lot. I have ramps, but the center beam will high-center the moment the rear rotisserie frame starts to go down the ramp.

Since the car will only be moving out of the shop into the lot to do the blasting and then back in again, I'll probably just build a couple of bridges to allow it to roll straight out and back in again. If I properly align the casters and fix them so they can't swivel, this "shouldn't be a problem."


W. Brian Fogarty

'02 S55 AMG (W220)
'92 300SE (W140) - sold
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #1164 - parted & gone
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #521

"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people, and most of them seemed to come from Texas..." Casino Royale, Chapter VII
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