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K4B 050 Transmission

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Printed on: 06/23/2018

Topic:


Topic author: aplekker
Subject: K4B 050 Transmission
Posted on: 01/27/2009 12:10:55
Message:


Since the transmission was out of my car, and it shifted rather harsh, I decided to take a good look at it.

First observation was leakage, mainly from the rear cover and the speedo meter cable mount. Also, I found out that the lever that is turned by the 2 way solenoid was frozen solid in the modulating pressure control housing.

I removed the housing, and also removed the brake band pistons B1 & B2 to check their sealing rings. This was a mistake, since I heard something falling down inside the transmission, which later turned out to be the pin between the piston and the brake band.
Then I decided to take the whole transmission apart, and completely reseal it.

Some interesting facts: this transmission must have been rebuilt sometime in the past, since 3 parts were missing: two wire locks that keep lock rings in place, and the lock ring for the output shaft connection to clutch K2.

Also, the bearing on the output shaft in the rear transmission housing turned out to be cracked.
My clutch spring compressor, which is designed for the 722.3 transmissions, is too small for the K1 and K2 clutch packs. I will have some rings made in order to use this compressor on these clutches.

Below some pictures. If there is any interest, I will put some photos up when this thing goes back together.

Here the complete gear train:



A close up of the gear train, see the burn marks from brake bands B1 & B2. B3 (left) has none, since it engages the reverse gears...



The cracked bearing on the output shaft...


Another look at the cracked bearing. See also the plate the connects into clutch K2, which was missing the lock ring...




Replies:


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 01/27/2009 17:12:44
Message:

Talking with someione recently,they said tyhat often you find those rings in the oil pan....That must have been a growly transmission with that busted bearing. When I see the scorch marks on the drums I could understand how someone has broken the bearing race. How are the linings?

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/27/2009 17:32:22
Message:

Ron,

The linings seem OK to me, I will post some pics later tonight and maybe you can give your opinion.
The clutch plates also seem OK.
However, I workshop manual and the EPC show 4 lined clutch plates (with Innenlamellen) for the K2 clutch, and I have found 5...
Any ideas? This is a late style transmission.









Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 01/27/2009 17:35:04
Message:

This is a subject I am very interested in right now. The engine for the 600 is at the machine shop right now, and the transmission is still sitting in the garage. While still in the car, the transmission looked like it was leaking from every possible location that it could possibly leak. I would like very much to pull it apart and reseal it before putting it back in the car.

The problem is that the internals of the automatic transmission is where I have always drawn the line in the past. I'll pull a valve body apart, but that's it.

One of my concerns has been the spring compressors. What is involved in making the 722.3 tool work? Would you post some photos?

Is it realistic to think I can get into this myself, and do it succesfully?

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: bwostosh
Replied on: 01/27/2009 23:51:02
Message:

If it had been apart before, did someone add the extra plate to compensate for some worn parts rather than get new clutch parts,
What are the dimensions of new / old clutch parts?
Do you mic them?

Brian O.


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/28/2009 00:20:31
Message:

Chris,

I think redoing a transmission is definitely something you could do. As a matter of fact, the K4B 050 transmission is, IMHO, a lot easier to do than a 722.3, since you can get to both sides of the transmission housing. The only special tool needed is the compressor for the clutch springs. I had some rings made to use the 722.3 tool, and after trying it tonight I found out that I need a refinement for the K1 clutch, but it worked great for the K2 clutch.

The manual talks about a tool for removing the piston housing for the B1 & B2 brake bands, but I found out that this tool is not needed. I used some longer bolts and the housing came off easy. Also, the guiding tool for getting the clutch pistons back in is not needed, I used a very cheap guiding tool that is nothing more than a very thing wire in a holder, and it slips the lip of the seal right back in.

Setting the clearances does not seem to be a big problem, specially if you only reseal the tranny and not change any of the bearings, clutches or brake bands. If it was me though, I would replace everything that wears while you are at it.

I have done three 722.3 transmissions with 100% success.

Below a photo show on the compressor story.


The original 722.3 compressor:









The compressor mounted on a 722.3 clutch:





Compressor mounted on 722.3 pack before compression:





and after compression (notice locking ring):





K4B 050 K2 clutch:





K2 clutch:





The 2 adapter rings, bottom left and middle:





Detail of the main adapter ring (needs changed!):





Compressor with adapter rings on K4B 050 K2 clutch:





Detail of other ring, needed because the original tool nut is too small for the K4B 050 clutches:





Detail of main ring:





Before compression:





After compression:





With locking ring removed (this locking ring mounts on the bottom instead of top):





Spring retainer removed:





Springs:





Piston removed:





Problem with adapter ring on K4B 050 K1 clutch: there should be a relief in the ID of the adapter ring, so the spring retainer can go through the ring, so you can remove the locking ring. Stupid, but those things happen. I will see if we can get that done tomorrow.





Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/28/2009 00:32:16
Message:

Ron,

Here some pics of the bands. I don't think they look too bad. Please let me know what you think.

B2 band:





Detail of B2 band:





Detail of B1 band:





Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 01/28/2009 03:09:12
Message:

Hi,those bands don't look like they have many miles on them. Perhaps they were changed at some time. Closely examine the ends where the pin pushes against them ,that's the bit that breaks off.
That may also explain why there is an extra plate in the clutch. There are 9 different thickness available,you should have the installed height specs in your manual (section 27-0) . There are three different lengths for the band pins too.

The compressor you are using in similar to the factory tool,but the factory is pressed with a press ,which not everyone has.

Chris,if you have the Finny workshop manuals from 1959 onwards,the DB auto trans part covers most of the transmission work ,the 6.3 part is really only a supplement to this.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/28/2009 08:32:21
Message:

Yes, the workshop manuals from 1959 on are very good, the main difference I see is the assembly/disassembly of the gear train, which is obviously different. The 6.3 supplement covers that, although I found a German version of the 1959 on etc manual that covers the K4B 050 even better.
I am still a little confused with the parts manuals, they show the clutch K3 and not the one-way clutch that is mounted in this transmission.

I will measure both clutch packs today, and publish the results later.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 01/28/2009 10:32:42
Message:

Thanks guys,

I have all the regular service manuals, as well as the transmission supplement from 1963 which is about 150 pages. At one time I had the K4B050 supplement when they were still available from MBNA, but that has grown legs sometime over the last 20 years. I know there have been recent posts about where to locate this particular supplement, so I'll have to go chase down one of those.

I agree that once the trans is apart, it is time to renew anything that is questionable. I'm going to give this a lot of consideration before doing anything, but if I decide to jump, I hope you all will be available for advice.

I'm amazed at the broken bearing. I've never seen anything like that before. I can only wonder what in the world would cause something that severe. My first concern would be that the bore that it fits into isn't round anymore.

There is a note in one of these manuals about a change in the number of clutch plates, but it is my memory that this change took place immediately before the 6.3 went into production implying that only the 600 would have actually seen the change in production. All 6.3s would have already had the greater number of plates. I'll see if I can dig this up since it may be relevant to what you are seeing. Which version of the parts book do you have?

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 01/28/2009 11:18:11
Message:

quote:
I have all the regular service manuals, as well as the transmission supplement from 1963 which is about 150 pages. At one time I had the K4B050 supplement when they were still available from MBNA, but that has grown legs sometime over the last 20 years. I know there have been recent posts about where to locate this particular supplement, so I'll have to go chase down one of those.


Uhh, okay, I have the K4B050 supplement too. It turned up in a box this past summer. I guess I just got used to the idea that it was gone. I'm going to use my advancing age as an excuse.



Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/28/2009 14:27:50
Message:


After the transmission case is cleaned (soda blasted) I will check the bearing bore for any damage. We will have to make a ring and machine the case if there is damage.

I think you are right about the K4B 050 clutch plate change: that took place at transmission # 1391, and from the start of production of the 6.3, as stated in the Grand 600 manual. So I assume my 600 has the old setup, and the 6.3 has the new one. I have a spare K4B 050 transmission in storage, have to find out what serial number, it might be usable for either the 6.3 or the 600.

I use an off-line EPC from 2001 (the Bell & Howell version) for most of my parts searches, since it is fast. For more up-to-date checking I subscribed to the on-line EPC, which is slow, but sometimes different from the 2001 version. It also shows the parts for my 2003 CL600.
The paper version for the transmission is Edition F, 10146 from 1968. However, that does not cover the K4B 050, but all the drawings are the same as in the electronic versions.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 01/28/2009 14:52:02
Message:

Albert, you've got a number of these transmissions and I've got an extra copy of the K4B-050 transmission parts book (10 153 Ed. A). It seems to me you should have it. I'll contact you off-line.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 01/28/2009 17:10:11
Message:

I thought about the extra clutch as mentioned in the 600 section too but as you say it really only relates to cars built before the 6.3 production. . I think from memory that the case is slightly longer on the later ones?
My only spare trans is the one I broke the band in and I haven't had time to pull it down yet.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/29/2009 11:52:40
Message:

The clutch situation is getting really bizarre. The way I found the clutches in my transmission is completely off from the way it should be according to my manual.
The manual I am using is a German supplement for PKW Typen ab 1968, Baureihe 108-115, from January 1972. The header: Automatische Getriebe K4B 050, Typ 300 SEL/8 6.3

On page 27-10/4 it shows the clutch layout for both clutches:

K1: 6 1 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 2

K2: 6 3 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 4

1 Steel 112 272 02 26 1.3mm
2 Steel 100 272 01 26 2.4mm
3 Steel 112 272 06 26 3.5mm
4 Steel 100 272 00 26 5.5mm
6 Steel 112 272 14 62 0.6mm

5 clutch plate lined 112 272 02 25 2.5mm

That means K1 has 14 elements with a total thickness of 36.8mm, and K2 has 10 elements with a total thickness of 36.1mm.

What I found:

K1:
3.0 Steel P
2.2 Lined
5.5 Steel P
2.3 Lined
5.0 Steel P
2.4 Lined
5.0 Steel F
2.3 Lined
4.5 Steel P
2.4 Lined
3.5 Steel F

K2:
4.5 Steel P
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
3.5 Steel F
2.5 Lined
6.3 Steel F

Steel F is a steel plate with full teeth on the outside diameter, Steel P has 4 times 3 teeth on the outside diameter, Lined are the clutch plates lined with the friction material.
What we can see in K1 is that most lined clutch plates are worn down from their 2.5mm initial thickness, while in K2 these lined clutch plates are all still 2.5mm.

Also, both K1 and K2 have 11 elements. If you take the full 2.5mm for all clutch plates, K1 ends up being 39mm and K2 37.3mm. That is 2.2mm difference from the spec for K1 and 1.2 mm for K2. That is definitely outside of the tolerance, which is 0.6mm for K1 and 0.4 mm for K2.

What we also see is the in both clutches:
- The first 0.6mm steel plate is missing.
- K1 should have 6 lined plates, I have 5.
- K2 should have 4 lined clutch plates, I have 5
- K1 should have 3.5mm steel plates between the lined plates, I have a variety.
- K2 should have 5.5mm steel plates between the lined plates, I have the 3.5 mm ones.

I thought I might have confused K1 and K2, but that is definitely not the case, I have many pictures on how this came apart, and it is very obvious where each pack came from. The housing and pistons for K1 and K2 are completely different.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the previous rebuilder messed things up pretty bad. The fact that the K1 plates are way more worn down than the K2 ones also might be an indication that things were wrong, since K1 should have had 6 plates.

Any one have any ideas???









1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 01/29/2009 16:29:03
Message:

Missed one plate so they put in the next clutch pack they were assembling?

I had a look in the tool catalogue and the only special tools needed for assembling a trans ,apart from the clutch assembly tool ) are clamps to press the side covers back on to the pistons. And anyone can make one ,it's very simple.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/29/2009 17:16:43
Message:

True about the special tools, other than the socket for the nut in the three legged flange on the output shaft.

I also have the pressure gages you hook up to the tranny and hang in the car while you drive it. Very handy.



1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/06/2009 12:22:34
Message:


After a lot of digging around, mainly in the online EPC, I found out what MB has available and lists as the proper setup of the K1 and K2 clutches. Since I subscribe to this EPC, I can access the info to all the MB products around the world, and by searching for part numbers you can get more info, like the thickness of the clutch plates.

Here we go: (referring to the pics on the first page of this thread)

K1: 6 1 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 2

K2: 6 3 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 7

where 6 is closest to the piston and the numbers refer to:

1: 109 272 15 26 2.0mm Outer Steel $9.00
2: 100 272 08 26 2.4mm Outer Steel $24.00
3: 109 272 08 26 3.5mm Outer Steel $16.50
4: 109 272 05 26 5.5mm Outer Steel $54.00
5: 112 272 02 25 Inner lined $13.88
6: 112 272 14 62 0.6mm Steel guard plate $7.31
7: 109 272 18 26 5.0mm Outer Steel $37.50

These should all be available from MB, and I ordered some more of the #6's in order to be able to adjust the clearance.

The brake bands are another story: we all know these are not available from MB, I have two companies that are saying these bands can be relined. We will see.

I also ordered the gasket kits, there are 4 per transmission. Also ordered the ball bearings, some clips and locks, etc.

Some special attention for the speedo meter cable attachment: this is an aluminum housing, and there is a 6mm bolt for clamping the speedo meter cable. This part is often cracked, since people try to tighten it too much. Of course mine was cracked, causing a slow but very irritating leak. Part # 112 270 01 13, for only $428.00.....




1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: cth350
Replied on: 02/07/2009 10:35:47
Message:

That 112 part number implies that there are several used cores out there. Is it fixable via some tig welding? -cth


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 02/07/2009 11:37:41
Message:

Cores? I have at least ten spare 300SE automatic transmissions. I'll have to pull one off and verify it really is the same part.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/07/2009 13:21:48
Message:

Yes, it is used on all 16 bolt pan transmissions, as far as I can see. But that is the MB list price, I was lucky and found one on EBay for a third of that (actually from Gary).

I am not an expert welder, but I think it would be impossible to weld. However, we have some good welders, I will ask them next week.

The main reason I mentioned this part is the leak problem. It is hard to see the crack.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/07/2009 13:41:35
Message:

I finally got to the clutch compressor issue. A new adapter ring was made, and it works. See the pictures below.

A word of caution: there are 24 springs in the K1 clutch, and these are a lot heavier that for instance the 722.3 clutch springs. They are also longer that the 722.3 springs. DO NOT use a cheap universal spring compressor, the force to compress the spring is tremendous and the distance to relieve the springs is larger.
Also, do not try to use a large vise or a drill press, you will take a large risk to get hurt.

The new adapter ring:





The K1 clutch as it comes out:





The K1 clutch with the tool mounted:





Setup before compression:





Setup after compression (notice the lock ring):





Lock ring removed:





Springs completely relieved (notice the LONG distance to go):





Tool removed:





Spring retainer plate removed. Notice how heavy these springs are:





1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 02/07/2009 15:15:26
Message:

Hi,I mentiojned before that the factory compressor is designed to be used in a hydrualic press...definitely a lot pressure! it has to withstand the m-100 torque

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/07/2009 15:25:01
Message:

Here a short picture story on the main pump, the governor and both small pumps on the output shaft.

Took these apart today, since the rest of the transmission is apart anyway, and I do not want to take the risk of more surprises like the cracked bearing.

No big surprises, although I found a large clump of crud of the pressure control piston in the rear bearing cover. That does not make me feel good about the valve body and the governor itself.
The governor can be taked apart, but the covers 1-4 are locked into place. I could take these covers off, but am not sure if that is a good idea. Any one have any ideas on this?


Front cover with primary pump:





Sealing rings, these hook together:





Pump gears:





Rear bearing housing with the govenor on the right and both pumps on the left:





Governer with four numbered fly weight chambers:





Governer stepper pressure transmitter piston on the top and pressure control piston on bottom:





Look at the crud:





Secondary oil pump:





Governor oil pump:





All parts of both pumps. The governer oil pump gears have a larger relief on one side, that faces the pump housing.






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP



Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/23/2009 00:40:16
Message:

Today I took the valve body apart. The K4B 050 manual I have is an original German manual, chapter 27-18, and a copy of the corresponding English manual.
The valve body top and base came apart easily, and all parts are as in the manual.
However, what MB calls the "oil distribution plate", which is basically the part of the assembly you will see after removing the filter, has some differences.

Venting bushing 34b was completely stuck, after removing pin 34c. I finally got it to move, but cannot get it out of the bore. Right now it moves freely in the space that is allowed by the pin, so it should be OK. Any one with any ideas???

Then, venting valve K1 (27) is a completely different part from the picture, and spring 27a is missing.

Finally, venting valve K2 (28) is also different, and spring 28a and washer 28c are missing. Now both parts 27 and 28 are the same shape, and these are both clutch venting valves. Did MB make a change??? Anyone has any idea???

For any one interested how I did this job: I take the pistons and valves out according to the manual, lay them on a piece of paper in the exact way and orientation they came out, and then took close up pictures. Then I store all parts in a parts box, after writing down which is where. After cleaning everything I will put it back together.


The valve body base with range selecting valve on top:






The valve body base:






Valve body base one side:






Valve body base other side:






Valve body top one side:






Valve body top other side:






All stored:






Oil distribution plate one side: (see bottom different K1 venting valve)





Oil distribution plate other side: (see bottom different K2 venting valve)






manual pages:





manual pages:





manual pages:







1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/25/2009 16:59:01
Message:

Well, since no one replied I decided to take the valve body off of one of my spare transmissions in order to find out what is going on with the different valve setup.
And guess what: they are exactly the same, so I assume MB made a change and never updated the manuals.

However, I have an issue, and I will have to get my (small) soapbox out. It really blows my mind that I have posted some questions in this thread (specially the last one about the valve body, and the one about the clutch issue) and no one comes up with anything. There have to be people around that read this bulletin board and that know the answers. Is it some kind of secret? In my opinion this bulletin board is there to expand all of our knowledge, and should serve as a deposit for all of our combined knowledge.
The professionals under us should have no fear about us taking their business, most people will leave that kind of work to them.
It took me 5 years to gather all the manuals that I have, some in horrible photo copy format. I also acquired some literature that was produced for inside MB use. But it is in all our best interest to share this info, and to put it on this bulletin board in order to preserve and spread it.

Am I off track here???

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/25/2009 18:02:08
Message:

Albert,

I am sorry, but have no knowledge about transmissions ....
Can't help you.


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 02/26/2009 02:01:54
Message:

Jeeez Albert,

You are teaching me here. I've had at least 10 people try to explain to me how an automatic transmission works and I still haven't a clue. Those valve bodies always remind me of an old English maze. As soon as anybody starts to explain the mechanism, my mind goes into neutral, not the gearbox.
,
Art


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 02/26/2009 17:42:19
Message:

Hi Albert,I looked at ones I have here and found the same thing,there was probably one of those sheets they sent out from Stuttgart every month to up date the manuals ( like microsofts update message) dircting the page be changed for a new one with updates. 27a is one that did cause a lot of problems with the trans in the W111 ,and i guess that a change has been made to the spacer plate (oil distribution plate) to try and overcome the stickiness .
Then again.someone may have forgotten to install the spring in the valve because it needs the spring to keep it closed.
With this in mind, the spring is a set length but again,this caused problems so it may be that the oil is being redirected in different modes to close the valve from behind hence the change in the plate. .
Looking at a valve body ,although they are complicated it's principle becomes easier to understand when it can be seen as the hydrualic brain. Apply higher pressure and different valves are forced open to to allow fluid to to force different brake pistons to work. Reduce pressure and the reverse happens. lower pressures close them and others still open allow other pistons to come into play.
In the meantine those higher pressures will also close the low pressure valves thus releasing their pistons.
So,if a valve is missing a washer or spring the pressure required isn't be raised to the correct level,it won't be allowing a piston to achieve full pressure and while it may work it could possibly allow slippage and that may be what caused the burnt drums in the trans.
Without looking up which piston the valve operates ( it's in the DB trans book mostly rather than the 6.3 supplement) i can only assume that that is what has happened.
Can you asee what is holding the other valve in the body? a bit of varnish possibly?


quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: wbain
Replied on: 03/13/2009 07:59:34
Message:

Does anyone know how to make these transmissions start in first, besides kickdown and selector position 2?

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 03/13/2009 11:05:41
Message:

Hi Warren,

I don't know any easy way to do that, but I'm curious as to why you would want to. These cars, including the M180, have plenty of power to get moving even on steep hills. The aggressive lurch going from 1st to 2nd would also be enough to make me want to avoid doing that on a regular basis.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 03/13/2009 14:40:56
Message:

Hi Albert,

We don't know each other, but I am having the same problem.

I can email you some photos showing what is in my transmission (72 6.3L K4B 050) for the venting valves K1 and K2 in the lower valve body. (I tried uploading them to this post but the M-100 server refused them) Please send me an email address so I can send the photos.

I have the same dumbbell-style venting valves for K1 and K2 with no springs. The outer finish on these parts is not high quality like the rest of the valves throughout the valve bodies.

I am contacting the MB classic center in Stuttgart on Monday regarding these parts to see if they are correct or not. Given what I'm hearing on this post, it seems at least five transmissions have this (both of mine do). I'll let you know what they say...

I also have a large (approx 1.5 cm diameter) round valve that fits in the lower valve body. It is flat on one side and has a short stem on the other side that is the downward facing side I think. I can't seem to find this part anywhere in the Supplement 5 manual I have. Any thoughts?

This valve seems to have some pressure behind it because it has left a soft wear mark on the underside of the oil distribution plate that fits between the lower and middle valve bodies.

You can get the bands relined, I'm trying to find out where, all I know is that there is a place in Alabama that does them. MB Classics in Germany will also do them but they will not ship them out of Germany, too many have been lost.

Best,

Alex


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/13/2009 15:02:37
Message:

For uploading files, the limit is ca 150 KB. If bigger, resize it.

If stored elsewhere on a public server, there is no limit, but then you need to take the button for that (right from the button "insert Email").


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/14/2009 02:41:32
Message:

Hi Alex,

I am in Germany at the moment, so I cannot look at anything on the transmission. I am pretty sure that these venting valves are correct, since you also have them.
The 1.5 cm disk is also in my valve body. I think it is a one way valve to prevent the fluid from draining back into the pan when the engine is not running.

I have heard that the Classic Center in Stuttgart does not reline bands anymore because of lack of cores. Anyway, if you find out who can do it in the States, please let me know. I also have been looking into that.

What did you find in the clutch packs? See my previous posts for what I found. I did receive all the parts, so I will start the re assembly in the next week after I return to the USA.

Regards,
Albert

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 03/15/2009 22:45:26
Message:

Hi Albert,

I too was just in Germany, the folks at MB Classics in Stuttgart said they could reline your bands if you supplied them, but they will not ship them anywhere outside Germany because of lost shipments.

I think you are right on the 1.5 cm disk although I'd love to see it in a manual.

I'll need to check what we found in the clutch packs, I think I had one more than specified...

Best,

Alex


Reply author: bwostosh
Replied on: 03/15/2009 23:14:30
Message:

This is our local flame spray connection.
We can do anything with this technology.

http://flamesprayinc.com/

Just ask, no problem with any aspect of the technology
( provide specs, dimensions and a core )

Brian O.


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/17/2009 14:00:18
Message:

Alex,

Are you referring to this round valve? If so, it is in my drawing. See pics below and let me know.

Thanks,
Albert


Towards the top on the left:





The valve in question?





See this drawing. I think that valve (#29) is right there:






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus 570HP


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 03/17/2009 18:52:35
Message:

Albert. I have commented elsewhere on how much I am enjoying this thread.
Unfortunately I have nothing useful to add, but PLEASE keep it going.
Eddie.


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 03/18/2009 19:28:25
Message:

What is really importent is that Albert has taken the time to post this up. A lot forums spend more time backslapping(and stabbing) than actually helping each other out. This is valuable information and benefits us all whether or not we contribute.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: wbain
Replied on: 03/19/2009 09:48:37
Message:

I have found this very instructive. I plan on dissecting my 220Sb auto trans. Same style, different size.

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/19/2009 12:34:09
Message:

Thanks, guys...

I find these comments encouraging, and will keep posting. It does not take that much time, since I take dozens of pictures anyway. The biggest pain is uploading the pics to Photobucket, and insert the links in the post.

I am planning to start a thread on the re-assembly of the engine, the transmission and the differential. I also have to finish my examination of the wiring harness, which is 90% done.

It was just a little discouraging if no one posts a reply, while other threads get a dozen replies on something like a part number for a small clip, or something like that.

But I guess that people are interested, so I will keep it going.

Thanks again for the comments.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/19/2009 14:04:27
Message:

Here some more pics on the disassembly of the transmission. I just tried to high light the main steps.

Here a pic of how not to mount the fluid coupler. The damage to this seal was probably done when the coupler was installed, and this seal leaked from the beginning. (look at the dirt in the bell housing).






A pic from the bottom, after the valve body is removed. You will see the brake bands B1 (right) and B2 (left). B3 is hiding under in the front of the transmission housing (right side). On the bottom of the bands you see the reaction valves (MB calls them thrust bearings) with their fluid supply pipes. On top of the bands you see the piston pins that activate the brake bands. The pin in the middle is the connected to the modulating pressure transmitter, and sticks into the valve body. The metal part between the brake bands is the bearing housing (or support plate). The pipe on the upper part of the bearing housing supplies fluid to one the the clutches. In other transmissions there are two pipes, since there is a clutch K3.





The modulating pressure transducer (vacuum controlled) and piston housing B1 & B2.





The diaphragm and connecting rod of the pressure transducer.





You do not need the special tool that MB describes in their manual in order to remove the housing. I just replace 4 M7 bolts with longer ones, and nuts that hold the housing down. By releasing the nuts in sequence the housing comes off easy.





Housing removed, see the springs for the B1 & B2 pistons. On the far left the bolt that adjust the play of brake band B3. I had a very hard time removing that bolt, had to heat up the alu housing.





After removing the rear of the transmission, the first thing to come off is the gear that drives the governor and the aux oil pumps. In my case you CANNOT turn the governor by hand, there is a significant problem there.





Governor on the left, aux oil pumps on the right, drive gear in the middle. On the output shaft (gear removed) you see the parking pawl ring, with the parking pawl to its right.





The rod that operates the parking pawl. on the left you see the main output shaft bearing, with its snap ring to hold it in place. Under the snap ring the spacers to adjust clearance.





Here the snap ring with the adjusting washers.





After removing the front of the transmission (main pump) you will see this:
Here the top of brake band B3 (reverse), its piston does not operate it directly, but through a lever.





Here the other side of B3. No reaction valve, but the adjusting bolt that was so difficult to remove.





Next time the removal of the brake bands and gear assembly. Also the disassembly of the gear assembly.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/19/2009 15:09:17
Message:

Nice done Albert,

Keep going and learn and teach us the functions and how it works.

Thanks for future postings.


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 03/19/2009 17:41:05
Message:

The damage to the seal is the result of someone installing the couple while it was horizontal. The couple must installed with the trans vertical,and removed like too. Check the conditon of the seal rings on the shaft and the bore to make sure there are no scratches. This is a common cause of trans/coupler leak down .

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 03/20/2009 01:03:11
Message:

Hi Albert,

I have received an answer from both California and Stuttgart classic centers.

The parts manual from California shows a 600 valve body with a dumbbell shaped venting valves replacing the parts for the parts 27 and 28 etc in our manuals.

The parts manual from Stuttgart shows a valve body with the same parts that we do not have (ie springs etc)

The 600 parts manual also shows the 1.5 cm valve pointing down.

Hope this helps....

Best

Alex



Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 03/20/2009 01:15:47
Message:

Hi again Albert,

The valve #29 in my valve body is much smaller and has a spring underneath it. The valve your photo shows has a spring underneath, mine does not have this spring....

I'll see if there was one, and if missing what to do about it.........


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/20/2009 09:57:20
Message:

Hi Alex,

You are right, the valve in question is not #29.

I am glad that you confirmed the situation around the venting valves. Did you get any hard copy drawings from the Classic center? If so, I would like a copy.

I added some pics in order to clarify the situation around the nickel size valve. Please let me know if we are talking about the same thing.

Here a pic of the complete oil distribution plate, with valves according to the service manual:





Valve #29 in detail:





Valve #36 (lower middle), valve in question upper left.


[br

Valve #35





Drawing from service manual:







1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/20/2009 10:16:05
Message:

Hi Ron,

You are right about the seal damage. The input shaft's front bearing is in the coupler, so it is kind of loose trying to move it in there. If you do that in horizontal position, you take the chance that you will damage the lip of the seal with the hollow shaft from the coupler.

For any one that want to know how to properly remove and mount the coupler, here are some pics. Again, the transmission should sit on the floor in vertical position. I do it with the rear mounting bracket still attached and some wooden blocks. I am sure MB had some kind of expensive fixture.

Screw some bolts in the coupler to get a better grip:





Fluid coupler with hollow shaft:





This is what happens is you do it wrong:










1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/24/2009 15:37:54
Message:

I am having a huge problem with some theory on this transmission. This transmission has three planetary gear sets, of which the first two are connected together and form a compound epicyclic gear train. After making a sketch on how this sticks together (no manual on that) I found a way to calculate the transmission ratio of thet set. Now the problem: according to the specs, the reductions are:
1st: 3.98
2nd: 2.46
3rd: 1.58
4th: 1

I calculated the reduction of the compound set at 1.56, which is obviously wrong (should be 2.46).
Here is the formula: ratio is (1 + (A1/S1+1)*S2/A2) / (1+S2/A2), of which is:
A1: first annulus gear, 76 teeth
S1: first sun gear, 50 teeth
A2: second annulus gear 76 teeth
S2: second sun gear 44 teeth

so ratio = (1 + (76/50 + 1) * 44/76) / (1 + 44/76)
= 2.46 / 1.58
= 1.56

The last set calculates fine at 1.58

I spent a few hours last night redoing the calculation, but always came back at 1.56 So finally this morning I stuck the gearset back together, attached brake band B1 and stuck the whole thing in a vise, thus simulating brake band B1 activated. After turning the input shaft 14 times, I got a 9 time revolutiuon of the intermediate shaft. This calculates to 14/9 = 1.55!

What is going on here? I somehow suspect that there is another interaction between the compound set and the rear planetary set, since the manual (page 27-0/1) states that the 2.46 reduction is "in front, center and rear planetary gear set".

I can't get it out of my mind, but have other things to do. Any one have any ideas, or does anyone know a manual where the three planetary gear set transmissions are explained? (I have the two planetary one).

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/24/2009 16:45:22
Message:

Hi Albert,

first I have to say I have no clou about those calculation, but I want just to help to find the mistake.

You calculate the second gear on 2,46 which is correct.
You calculate the third gear on 1.58 which is also correct.
But then you divide the second gear by the third gear and go wrong.

Why do you divide the second gear by third gear ???
See also Tabellenbuch 1969 page 269 and 271
Or Tabellenbuch 1972 page 286 and 287

an other Hint might be: Brakeband 1 is never activated "alone" but always in combination with Brakeband 2 ..... and then you should get i = 2,46 ...... In other words, the combination you shifted and tested is NEVER used. So you calculated it correct but that NEVER happens to be the fact ..... right ???


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 03/24/2009 16:54:25
Message:

ummmm ...I think it's best you leave the trans for a few days .
As long as they work I am sure the trans will be ok.
I have a color picture of the DB trans as fitted to the W111 if that is of any help.I haven't looked at it for a while but I think it indicates powerflow.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/24/2009 20:40:55
Message:

Hi Paul and Ron,

I have seen the coincedence on the 2.46 and 1.58 in the calculation of the first two planetary sets, but still cannot figure out the relevance.

Paul, where did you see that B1 will never be activated alone???
That cannot be true. It has to be activated with either B2 or K2, but never with K1.

Here is the scheme:

In 1st: B1 and B2 2.46 * 1.58
In 2nd: B1 and K2 2.46
In 3rd: K1 and B2 1.58
In 4rd: K1 and K2 1
In rev: B3

The clutch packs K1 and K2 kind of 'shorten' out the planetary gear sets, or make the reduction 1:1.

The problem I still have is that the first two planetaries somehow get to a reduction of 1.56, which cannot be true. But it somehow is proven by the test...

Ron, I agree, I left all the paperwork at work, was not going to look at it again for a while. I agree, the transmission works, but somehow I cannot handle not being able to explain. Do you know if there is a manual about the three planetary trannies, like there is about the two's? (actually it is also in the "passenger cars from 1959...").

If you have anything about the W111 tranny, is that one with three planetary sets? If so, I would love to see a picture.

In the end it will all work out, it has to. Maybe I made a mistake with the composition of the first two gear sets.. But, it worked that way on the bench. maybe I will try that again tonight,

Thanks for your reactions.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/25/2009 07:54:59
Message:

Hi Albert:
according to your figures :
In 1st: B1 and B2 2.46 * 1.58
In 2nd: B1 and K2 2.46
In 3rd: K1 and B2 1.58
In 4rd: K1 and K2 1
In rev: B3

But according to the facts in my Tabellenbuch for the M100/K4B050:
In 1st: F and B2 3.98
In 2nd: B1 and B2 2.46
In 3rd: K1 and B2 1.58
In 4rd: K1 and K2 1
In rev: B3 and F 4,15
So I believe you got the wrong tabel picked out and not that from the M100gearbox.

So what you have tested is imho an non-excisting gearoption ....
Redo your test and activate both brakebands and you should get i = 2.46.
In the Tabel you can clearly see that "Brakeband 1" only is used for second gear in combination with B2. In all other gears B1 is not used.
As you can see Brakeband 1 is only used in combination with brakeband 2 for second gear.


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/25/2009 10:06:00
Message:

Paul,

You might have hit the nail on the head here. I have no idea what "F" is, but it might be the one way clutch in the second gear set. That would also confirm my idea that somehow the two gearsets interact together.

I do not have that "Tabellenbuch", nor any other manual on the K4B 050 other than the assembly manual. Could you post a picture of the page that you are referring to?

THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY, I really think this will be worked out now.

Albert

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/25/2009 10:55:57
Message:













Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/25/2009 11:04:00
Message:

Thanks a lot, Paul, that will really help.

Will let you know later what I found out.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/25/2009 11:34:19
Message:

Albert,

F will be the "Freilauf" as I believe. (see the picture from the 600 gearbox).
Hope you will now get it all together.




Reply author: karra
Replied on: 03/25/2009 12:35:41
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by aplekker

As a matter of fact, the K4B 050 transmission is, IMHO, a lot easier to do than a 722.3.


I decided to borrow this topic as it is very active . I used Search but could not find any information what kind of ATF is recommended for these old transmissions.

My 1968 Coupe has a bit worn out tranny because it squeeks when starting to drive uphill and also when hot it shifts to higher gear at approx. 45 MPH speed only (when cold then earlier). I have tried both Valvoline Max Life and Mobil Fully Synthetic AFT on the Coupe.

On my previous 1984 W126 I used succesfully Pennzoil Dexron III ATF as well as in my Tahoe also.

Should I find somewhere a Dexron II fluid to my 6.3 ? I think it needs the old type ATF containing the friction additives.

I guess a Dexron III type is suitable for my 1993 E420 ?

Kari Pykäläinen

1971 6.3 #5581
1968 280 SE Coupé
1993 E420
1995 Tahoe 350cid


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 03/25/2009 12:47:06
Message:

Dexron III is also appropriate for the the early transmissions, including the K4B 050.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/25/2009 13:20:29
Message:

Yes, Paul, it is the "freilauf", or the free wheeling clutch, that only acts in one direction.

What really solved the problem was the sequence of the actuators, that I got wrong.

For any one interested, here is how it works:

Take a look at Paul's picture, and you will follow me (boy, I wished I had that yesterday, I had to draw it up myself). You will see the following details:
There are 3 planetary gear sets (Planetenradsatz), two in the front part of the gear set and one in the back. They have the following characteristics:

S1: 50 S2: 44 S3: 50 sun gear, number of teeth
P1: 14 P2: 17 P3: 27 planet gears, number of teeth (does not matter in calculations)
O1: 76 O2: 76 O3: 76 outer gear, number of teeth


- Input shaft connected to sun gear S1 and to inner clutch K1.
- Planet gear carrier P1 connected to drum B3 and outer clutch K1, intermediate shaft, outer gear O2, outer gear O3 (through intermediate shaft) and inner clutch K2.
- Outer gear O1 connected to planet carrier P2, to free wheeling unit F through hollow shaft
- Sun gear S2 connected to drum B1
- Drum B2 connected to outer clutch K2, sun gear S3, AND Free wheeling unit F (I missed this originally).
- Planet carrier P3 connected to output shaft.

What happens:
First gear:
- Only B2 is activated, holding drum B2 and thus sun gear S3, which makes the rear carrier a simple planetary gear train of which the outer gear O3 is driving and the planet gear P3 is driven (output shaft). Gear ratio 1 + 44/76 = 1.58
- The planet P2 and outer gear O1 are hold in place by F (through hollow shaft)against drum B2 (which I missed originally), so the first set is now a simple planetary gear train of which sun gear S1 is driving (input shaft) and planet carrier P1 is driven (output shaft). Gear ratio 1 + 76/50 = 2.52
- Total: 1.58 * 2.52 = 3.98

Second gear:
- B1 and B2 are activated. B2 same as in first gear, ratio 1.58
- B1 now holds sun gear S2, and both the front and central planetary gear sets form a compound epicyclic train, of which sun gear S1 is driving (input shaft), planet carrier P1 is driven (intermediate shaft) and sun gear S2 is stationary). Ratio is now a complex calculation, see my earlier thread. See http://www.most.gov.mm/techuni/media/ME02015_139_158.pdf for theory.
ratio: 1.56
Total ratio: 1.58 * 1.56 = 2.46


Third gear:
- B2 and K1 activated. B2 same as first gear, so ratio is 1.58
- K1 locks up the front and central panetary sets, so the ratio is 1.
- Total ratio: 1 * 1.58 = 1.58


Fourth gear:
- K1 and K2 activated. Now all gear sets are locked up and the overall ratio is 1.

Reverse:
- B3 activated, this holds planet carrier P1 and thus the intermediate shaft and the outer gear O3 stationary.
- Front planetary set acts like a simple one, with sun gear S1 driving and outer gear O1 driven. Now the direction of rotation is reversed, with ratio 76/50 = 1.52 The resulting motion is transmitted through the hollow shaft connected to planet carrier P2, through the free wheeling clutch F, and through drum B2 to sun gear S3.
- the rear planetary set acts as a simple one, with sun gear S3 driving, and planet carrier S3 driven. Ratio is 1 + 76/44 = 2.73
- Total ratio is -1.52 * 2.73 = -4.15

Remarks:
- Basically the more modern MB transmissions are set up the same way, these use a Ravigneaux planetary set as the first compound gear set.
- The free wheeling unit F is NOT energized, that is why it is between brackets in Paul's list. It is however important in the all over scheme.

I am glad this is solved, since it bothered me enormously. After I verified the ratio of the compound set (with the brake band and vise setup) I was even more confused, because it proved my math was right (on the compound gear set). What I missed of course was the relevance of the hollow shaft and F, which I assumed was only used in Reverse.

Thanks again, Paul...

If any one has a copy for sale of the Tabellenbuch, I would like to buy one, does not matter in English or German.


Here a scetch of my interpretation of the actual set up of the members of the transmission:






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 03/25/2009 14:28:15
Message:

Albert. It seems to me that you are about ready to write 2009 edition Tabellenbuch yourself. Congratulations.
Eddie.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 03/25/2009 14:42:16
Message:

These little books are truly invaluable.

The english name on these books is "Technical Data Passenger Cars", and there are Editions for every three years, i.e. 1963, 1966, 1969, 1972, etc. I strongly recommend that anybody that doesn't have them should buy the ones that apply to their particular car.

The only thing you still won't know after reading these is the appropriate spark plug gap and the recommended oil type.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/25/2009 15:27:44
Message:

After all the confusion about the gear ratio's is gone, I will post some pics of the tear down of the transmission.

Here is were we left of, the front of the transmission with the pump removed. You can see brake band B3 (reverse).





Brake band B3 ready to come out.





This is brake band B1, which can be removed with the gear set in, after removing two bolts on the top of the transmission.





Now we can remove the gear set, after taking out four bolts that hold the bearing support in place.





The manual wants you to pull the grooved ball bearing with a special puller that no one has. Since I will replace it any way, I use a rubber hammer and tap on the output shaft, taking the bearing with the gear set. Here it is:





This is the housing with brake band B2 still in place. B2 can only be removed and installed with the gear set out.





Here the complete gear set. You see on the left drum B3, for the reverse. This drum also holds clutch K1. The next section is drum B1, which also holds both the front and the central planetary gear sets. On the right (after the bearing support) is drum B2, which holds clutch K2, the rear planetary gear set and free wheeling clutch F.





Split of drum B3 and B1. On the left B3 and the guts of B1, on the right B1. Out of B3 the hollow shaft for reverse that is connected to free wheeling F. Out of B1 the intermediate shaft.





Drum B1, with the sun gear S2 from the central planetary set. Sticking out is the intermediate shaft.





The planet gears of the central planetary shaft. Here you also see the fact that there are 6 planet gears, specially for the K4B 050 transmission. All other transmissions have only three planet gears. This is for the massive torque of the M100 engines. Also the hollow shaft that is connected to these planet gears.





In order to separate the B3 drum and the central/front gear set you have to get to a lock that is hard to get to. With a small screw driver you have to get to this clip.





Left the carrier for the front/central gear sets, right the B3 drum with clutch K1 and sun gear S1. This sun gear is connected to the input shaft.





Here drum B3, clutch plates, sun gear S1.





Here the planet gears P1 of the front planetary set. You can see that this set is connected to drum B3 through the large toothed ring. It is also connected to the outer gear O2 of the central set and to the intermediate shaft (spline in the middle).





The clutch plates out of clutch K1.





Drum B3, and the input shaft. You see the toothed area on the bottom, which is the inner clutch teeth. Under there, invisible, is the sun gear S1. In the drum you see the springs for clutch K1 and the piston that moves the clutch plates.





Now the planet carrier from the front gear set is removed (left), and you see the outer gear O1. To get this apart you have to remove the lock you see around O1. It is secured by a wire, that is EXTREMELY hard to get out.





Here O1, separated from the rest.






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 03/25/2009 15:49:53
Message:

Just got an email from Paul that the "Tabellenbuchen" are still available.

And just ordered three of them, from MB USA.

1 Edition 1969: Passenger Cars (Reproduction) $59.99 $59.99
QL-6510-1261-02
1 Edition 1977: Passenger Cars from 01/ 1977 to 12 $49.99 $49.99
QL-6510-1268-02
1 Edition 1988: Passenger cars model years 1985 to $39.99 $39.99
QL-6510-1277-02

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/25/2009 18:29:59
Message:

@ Kari,

First question : do you know when the last change of the oilfilter has been done. MB advises the change every 45000 km. A clogged filter can make difference in shiftingbehaviour.

Until may 1969 the Coupe had the automatic gearbox K4A 025 and from then on the K4C 025.
Those gearboxes have a different feeling in shiftsmoothness, which depends =as we just discovered= on the method of using those brakebands and clutches together inside for each gear. The newer method is first used on the 600 in 1963 and brought progress.

Your's should be the first mentioned type and the later used is the second type. That earlier automatic gearbox has a reputation that it can harder shift as the later ones.

Since our cars are developed for mineral oils, I never use synthetic oils. The right type is =as I remember right= mentioned in the endsection of the Car-manual. It is normal red ATF. I last bought a 5 Liter canister normal red ATF in a supplier for motorboots (for recreation). Also often used and available by suppliers/discount for farmers.




Reply author: karra
Replied on: 03/26/2009 14:26:03
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

@ Kari,

First question : do you know when the last change of the oilfilter has been done. MB advises the change every 45000 km. A clogged filter can make difference in shiftingbehaviour.

Since our cars are developed for mineral oils, I never use synthetic oils. The right type is =as I remember right= mentioned in the endsection of the Car-manual. It is normal red ATF. I last bought a 5 Liter canister normal red ATF in a supplier for motorboots (for recreation). Also often used and available by suppliers/discount for farmers.

Hi Paul,

my coupe went through a partial restoration and a complete service in 1998 in LA and was imported to Finland in 1999. I bought it in 2004 and probably it had been driven less than 5000 km when I got it. I tried to get the transmission working better with this Valvoline Max Life oil, and because it did not help I tried the fully synthetic one (I suspected the heat causing the problem). Anyhow the problem is not too irritating, I can live with that.

Today I bought Gulf ATF Dexron III for the 6.3 transmission and for the engine I got Gulf SL 20W-50 mineral oil with zinc additive for improved camshaft lubrication.

Kari Pykäläinen

1971 6.3 #5581
1968 280 SE Coupé
1993 E420
1995 Tahoe 350cid


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 03/27/2009 18:59:36
Message:

That gulf oil sounds exactly right.Do know if it has the rating on the container (zinc level etc ) ?.
I would very much like to buy it here in OZ or it's equivelent. Even though the oil companies are saying there modern oils are as good as the older zinc rich types i am not willing to wear out cams for the sake of some politicians CO reduction policy.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 03/31/2009 00:10:36
Message:

Hi All,

We have re-assembled the K4B050 transmission with the dumbbell valves that are illustrated in Albert's photos. The mystery valve (#29) in the lower valve body, was re-assembled according to Albert's digital photo, stem facing down towards the filter.

The transmission shifts into gear no problem at 'D' and the car takes off from a standing start with no problem however when accelerating quickly in second gear, the engine rumbles almost like it was misfiring and the transmission shifts into third and then fourth gear very quickly.

There is also no downshift when flooring the car in third gear at a lower speed...say forty mph. The solenoid does operate properly at it's three positions.

When shifted into '1' the transmission slips badly, if the gas is let off (ie. power reduced), it will shift into second gear with no problem and then into third and so on.

We made sure that the electric switch for the vacuum on the manifold near the air filter was good and properly connected...

We are thinking that the modulator valve and associated stem are not correct because the minimum pressure we get from the transmission is 2.6 bars of pressure, not the .6 to 1.4 as stated in the front of the
supplement 5 manual.

Does anyone else have any ideas regarding this? There are only two exterior adjustments for this transmission, 1) the rod connecting the solenoid to the modulator arm and 2) the modulator adjustment screw (with locking nut) itself.

All parts in the valve body are correct, they have been double checked...


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 03/31/2009 16:47:01
Message:

Make sure you have no vacuum leaks on the engine,the 6.3 has a pretty big suck and the vacuum signal to the trans is big. If there is a leaking intake pipe connection etc the signal will be less than required and the modulator will get the wrong signal etc.
Have you adjusted the solenoid rod length to reduce the modulator pressure? In the manual it has the initial length to work with and each adjustment is just 1/8th of a turn . The ball ends need to free and lubed with no sign of extra play.
One very important point,are the electrical connections from the manifold switch to the trans correct and delivery full voltage ,with the manifold switch correctly adjusted?

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 04/01/2009 00:46:08
Message:

Make sure you have no vacuum leaks on the engine,the 6.3 has a pretty big suck and the vacuum signal to the trans is big. If there is a leaking intake pipe connection etc the signal will be less than required and the modulator will get the wrong signal etc.
Have you adjusted the solenoid rod length to reduce the modulator pressure? In the manual it has the initial length to work with and each adjustment is just 1/8th of a turn . The ball ends need to free and lubed with no sign of extra play.
One very important point,are the electrical connections from the manifold switch to the trans correct and delivery full voltage ,with the manifold switch correctly adjusted?

Thanks for your reply! Some good thoughts...

There is lots of vacuum, even at idle. We do get lots of pressure in the modulator, too much I think.

A recheck of the solenoid rod length is in order but I think the modulator pressure is still too high even with the modulator control arm pushed all the way towards the rear of the transmission which is where it should be at idle with no pressure applied to the gas pedal.

The electrical connections from the manifold switch to the transmission have been checked and are correct, I'm not sure what the full voltage should be and I cannot find a reference to this switch in the manual, do you know the job number offhand? (27-?). The manual I have has jobs 27-0 through 27-9 and from 27-22 on forward. The supplement 5 manual I have lists jobs 27-10 through 27-18.

It seems I'm missing jobs 27-19 through 27-21 assuming they even exist.

I do not see an adjustment on the switch...

In the supplement 5 manual, more specs are listed in job 27-10. There is reference (27-10/1) to two(2) pressure pins for the modulating pressure transmitter, one with one notch (90mm), the other without (89mm). No mention of a third pin.

In the main manual containing most of the jobs, there is a reference to the same two pins and a third pin with two notches (91mm).

I suspect that these pins can be swapped to adjust the basic modulator pressure at the basic pressure setting of 0.6 +/- 0.05 kp/cm2.

There is also a reference in the supplement 5 manual, for pressure step adjustments (27-10/2) where three(3) compensating shims are referenced. These shims are to placed under pressure control valves and associated springs, either internally or externally. The problem is that I'm not sure which pressure control valves are being referenced...???? There is a letter U with an umlaut referenced so this is probably an abbreviation to a gear from the German manual.

If all else fails, I'm considering shortening the pressure pin to a length of 88 mm to see if that decreases the basic operating pressure at idle from 2.9 kp/cm2 to the factory spec of 0.6 +/- 0.05 kp/cm2.




Reply author: abl567
Replied on: 04/01/2009 02:14:12
Message:

I do not see an adjustment on the switch...

Hi, the switch is adjusted by undoing the allen head screws slightly and rotating the switch around its axis

There is a procedure in the service manual for setting it but I cannot look up the page right now

The switch on the throttle valve activates a relay the instant the throttle is opened, to adjust it loosen the 2 screws and with the ignition on set the switch so the relay clicks at the slightest movement of the throttle. This sets the tranny in a idle mode with no throttle pressure and activates full operation when you touch the throttle.
Another reason why fresh throttle linkages improves these cars

300SEL
6.3 #2723, my first classic Benz
3.5 #8659, my second.
2 to go...


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 04/01/2009 09:13:58
Message:

Do not make the mistake of changing the length of the pins on spec.

Proper troubleshooting discipline dictates remembering that the transmission operated previously with the pin that was already in it. If the pressure is off, it is because something else is wrong. Making a second thing wrong isn't going to correct the first.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 04/01/2009 21:38:31
Message:

It also sounds like the rod from the solenoid is too long. Try shortening it a 1/2 turn with the gauges connected. The valves mentioned are in the valve body itself, it should make note as to which ones they mean.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: flinfosys
Replied on: 04/02/2009 14:12:03
Message:

Hi All,

Thank you for your answers...

1) abl567, you are correct, I thought perhaps there was an external adjusting screw that could be adjusted, the adjustment you are referring to is not obvious...

2) Chris, you are correct also, I thought the same thing, shortening the pin may cause further problems...

3) Ron B, would shortening the solenoid rod length decrease pressure? Is there a starting length for the rod going to the solenoid? I thought I saw mention of one in the manual but I can't seem to find the spec in job 27-0


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 04/04/2009 16:54:00
Message:

Yes,it should. High pressure like can only be a modulator issue unless the gasket between the valve body halves is leaking somewhere.
I havew a memory of the length being 160mm but I may be wrong there. try pushing the arm back to point where you can feel the modulator valve pushing .that should be your start point with the solenoid in the nuetral position. As the rod is increased the valve is opened further and this could possibly be where your problem lays at the moment.

The solenoid ,when the car is stopped with your foot off the pedal,moves forward releasing the fluid pressure in the trans so the fluid coupler isn't trying to drive the car.Place your foot on the pedal and it moves n the other direction increasing the pressure to the pistons to enable the bands to work.



quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: wbain
Replied on: 04/12/2009 14:11:19
Message:

Based on this thread, I've begun taking my trans apart for an inspection. I've got the front cover off, the first drum out and the band. I also took the pan off and there was some sort of sealant on it instead of a gasket. I suspect the trans is riddled with bits from it. The trans mount is toast. Now all I have to do is get the drive flange off.

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 04/12/2009 23:30:38
Message:

Warren ,the besy idea is too get a large 3/4 drive socket and cut it down to fit the ring nut in the flange. Punching the ring nut to release it soon causes more trouble than it's worth.
This is a lancia item but it's roughly what is needed.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: wbain
Replied on: 04/15/2009 14:07:32
Message:

My front cover gasket was mangled. I'll post some pics soon.

I did get the whole assembly cleaned, the pipes to the cooler cleaned and polished. The front band looks good and I'll get to the others soon.

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 04/23/2009 11:06:01
Message:

OK, after the trip to Essen and some other issues that took my attention I will post the final pics of the disassembly of the gear set.
The first part of the set was pictured before in this thread. Now on to the second part.

Before that, one word of caution. Here is the second planetary set (on the right) and you can see that there is one planetary gear missing (at 4 o'clock). I have seen sets were the shafts were pinched on top, so they cannot fall out. This one did...





This is the result. It will be a pain in the .... to get that back in with the needle bearing parts...





Here is were we left off. On the left drum B2, then the bearing support and on the right drum B1.





Here we took B1 off, it is on the bottom right. You see sun gear S2 attached to B1. To the left you see the intermediate shaft, with an oil seal (the ring on the spline). You also see the bearing support with the radial bearing and the thrust bearing (both needle bearings).





Now the bearing support is removed from the rear part of the gear set.





The drum B2 has the same radial clips to keep it together like the front drum. The wire that secures the clip is thicker, and even nastier to get out. Some rebuilders leave this lock out when they put the set back together.





Another look at the nasty lock...






You just have to pry it out. I use a pick, like Sears sell in a set...





See how the pick gets abused. The steel wire is soft, so it is easy to bend...





Here the bottom of B2, with the output shaft and the ball bearing... Of course you need a good glass of California wine while you do this kind of work.





Output shaft with planetary gears and sun gear removed, here outer gear O3.





Here the output shaft, attached to the sun gear S3. The planetary gears are still on the sun gear.





Here the intermediate shaft, connected to outer gear O3 and the inside of clutch K2 (the large splined part in the middle).





Here a look at drum B2. You see the clutch plates, and the infamous one way (or free wheeling) clutch F. (Under the large circlip).





Here clutch pack K2.





Here what is left of drum B2. On the left you see the piston for clutch K2 and the one way clutch F in the middle on top.





These are the guts of one way clutch F. On the right the ring that goes inside the part in the middle. When we put this back together, we have to be sure that this part goes in the right way, otherwise there will be no reverse and no first gear...






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 04/23/2009 18:26:06
Message:

Is that a chunck gouged out of the lock Wire? I wonder when that happened? at the factory (unlikely) or when it was rebuilt in the past maybe. The bearing in the bottom picture is pretty sad...

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 04/24/2009 08:01:42
Message:

I do think the gouge happened in the factory. This was a factory rebuilt transmission (Taushagregat).
The lock wire is made of very soft steel, and it comes in shaped in a circle. With pliers you bend a notch in it, and then you wurm it into the space between the main lock ring and the drum. You have to tap it into three recesses, and I am pretty sure that's how the gouging happened.

The part in the bottom picture is NOT a bearing, it if the frewheeling clutch F. What you are looking at are the wishbone shaped pieces, held together in a cage, and spring loaded to one direction. This creates the one way only effect when turned between two concentric rings.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 04/24/2009 11:36:49
Message:

Here a few pics of the factory recommended procedure of installing the lock:


With pliers of the right width you bend the wire as follows:





Then bend the wire like this and stick the straight part in the slot of the drum. Then punch the wire ring with a screw driver into the three milled pockets... (a rather sloppy translation from German by me). So I am pretty sure the gouging you see in the pictures was caused this way.






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: wbain
Replied on: 04/24/2009 13:26:59
Message:

I took the K1 clutch apart today and the clutches are shot. So it will be a complete rebuild for mine. I'll get a link to a different thread on another forum, to keep this one 6.3 pure.

Warren Bain '65 220S, '89 300SE, '89 420SEL, 2002 Ford Crown Vic Police Interceptor


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 04/24/2009 17:37:07
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by aplekker

I do think the gouge happened in the factory. This was a factory rebuilt transmission (Taushagregat).
The lock wire is made of very soft steel, and it comes in shaped in a circle. With pliers you bend a notch in it, and then you wurm it into the space between the main lock ring and the drum. You have to tap it into three recesses, and I am pretty sure that's how the gouging happened.

The part in the bottom picture is NOT a bearing, it if the frewheeling clutch F. What you are looking at are the wishbone shaped pieces, held together in a cage, and spring loaded to one direction. This creates the one way only effect when turned between two concentric rings.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


I realised that after I posted,but it looks like the rollers are worn in the picture or is that just reflected light?

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 04/24/2009 17:43:13
Message:

Ron,

That might be the light or dirt. I haven't cleaned nor inspected anything yet.

This transmission is at first impression in decent shape, other than the govenor shaft, which you cannot turn by hand. There is defenitely something wrong there.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: juan
Replied on: 05/02/2009 09:01:30
Message:

"Then, venting valve K1 (27) is a completely different part from the picture, and spring 27a is missing."

"Finally, venting valve K2 (28) is also different, and spring 28a and washer 28c are missing. Now both parts 27 and 28 are the same shape, and these are both clutch venting valves. Did MB make a change??? Anyone has any idea???"

I wished i was in this forum a couple of months bak. I also found this differences when I did my gearbox. It sure gave me lots of head ache at that time! Box is working now.
I am impressed and relieved with this forum!

Hi


Reply author: juan
Replied on: 06/05/2009 15:50:09
Message:

"We are thinking that the modulator valve and associated stem are not correct because the minimum pressure we get from the transmission is 2.6 bars of pressure, not the .6 to 1.4 as stated in the front of the
supplement 5 manual."

There are three measurements that must be done with the vacuum line DISCONNECTED assuming the solenoid is working in its three positions while depressing the accelerator pedal with shift at P :
1) At idle the pressure should be .6 to 1.4
2) Press the pedal to at or above 2000 r.p.m, the pressure should be about 2.9
3) Press the pedal again as in 2) but now also depress the kick down switch with the other hand or foot, pressure should be above 4.5

I all ok connect the vacuum again and test. If you forget the vac line you will get extremely hard and late shifts.

Juan


Reply author: 6.3Nut
Replied on: 10/27/2009 09:54:19
Message:

Guys need a little help:
a) I have accidentally filled the transmission fluid to the top marker on the dip stick when the engine was around 175F. Can you tell me the best way to take some fluid out.

b) I called up Benz to purchase ATF and they told me that they only have synthetic ATF and for such an old car they would either put Mobil or Castrol non-synthetic - Now, can you tell me that if I am going for a complete fluid change can I switch to MB or Mobil 1 Synthetics and if not then which fluid is recommend?

Thanks

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931


Reply author: wbrian63
Replied on: 10/27/2009 10:42:45
Message:

I'm not certain that a full indication at 175F is a bad thing, but if you must get some fluid out, I'd try a simple piece of rigid HDPE tubing (available at Home Depot) about 4 or 5 feet long. About 1/4 to 5/16" OD should be fine. Stuff it down the filler tube and suck some fluid up into the tube with mouth suction. Long tube keeps you along way from ingesting fluid. You shouldn't need to remove much.

As for fluid - even with a complete flush, I would not suggest any sort of synthetic fluid for a 6.3 transmission, unless the unit had been completely rebuilt. Putting synthetic fluids in where none used to be in older components is a quick trip to the leak farm. I'm not certain that synthetic fluids would be a good idea period in a 6.3 tranny.

I'll hazard a guess and suggest that plain-old Dexron II or Dexron III transmission fluid should work - a good brand name like Castrol is just fine. "Back in the day" there were only two types of transmission fluid - Dexron and Type-F. Type-F only went in Ford transmissions. The "rest of the world" used Dexron. Even my '92 W140 300SE 5-speed auto used Dexron.

W. Brian Fogarty

'02 S55 AMG (W220)
'92 300SE (W140) - sold
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #1164
'76 450SEL 6.9 Euro #521

"Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people, and most of them seemed to come from Texas..." Casino Royale, Chapter VII


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 10/27/2009 12:34:15
Message:

The transmission should read full at full operating temp, so I'm not sure what the concern is (?).

Stay with a Dexron-Mercon III fluid. These days there are so many types of transmission fluid at the auto store that it may take some looking to find the right one.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: 6.3Nut
Replied on: 10/27/2009 13:19:32
Message:

Chris and Brian:
Thank you very much for your inputs. The reason I have the concern with the fluid level is because the shop service manual says to keep the fluid level below the high level mark to give space to expansion if the temperature rises. And also, becuase the temp. when I put the fluid in was just 175F after driving about 4 miles so I am afraid when I take the car on a longer tirp the oil will rise higher.

Thanks

There cars and then there are BABIES!
1969 Euro Model
10901812000931


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 10/27/2009 13:32:55
Message:

The book means to keep the oil level below the full mark when the transmission is cold so that when the metal components expand there will be room to force the oil level higher without exceeding the top mark.

The engine would have to have serious overheating problems before that would have an adverse effect on the trans oil level, and if it were that bad you wouldn't be driving the car.



Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 10/27/2009 16:34:38
Message:

The most effective way to check the fluid level is to go for a drive of at least 5 miles so the trans itself gets hot.
Check the fluid with the car in drive and idling ( HANDBRAKE ON AND SOMEONE APPLYING THE BRAKE!) .A safe reading should be just under the full mark.
The main reason for allowing plenty of fluid space is because excess fluid gets whipped into foam by the trans and causes wear,noise and bad shifting.
If the reading on the stick shows a lot of extra fluid Above the level mark,drain some off and let the car sit for at least 5 minutes then repeat the above proceedure . You need to let the fluid settle to release some of the air bubbles and the drive is ensure all air has been pushed from the valve body.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: juan
Replied on: 11/15/2009 20:53:36
Message:

OK I changed to Dexron-Mercon III fluid on the 6.3. I wander if I shuld do the same on the 3.5. Thanks.

Juan


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 11/16/2009 16:57:17
Message:

The 3.5 has different design trans but it still uses Dexron 3 so by all means use the same fluid.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: juan
Replied on: 11/17/2009 19:48:49
Message:

Will do that. Thanks!

Juan


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/05/2010 17:02:42
Message:

Finally back on this project. Most transmission parts got cleaned, including the case.So I started to put the thing back together. I will do a picture story on how that went.

First thing on my list was the main gear assembly. In order to get that together, you first have to put clutch packs K1 and K2 together. Here we go:


All parts that go into clutch pack K1. In the center the drum, which also serves as the drum for brake band B3. To the left 6 new clutch plates, #112 272 02 25. On the bottom the outer seal, #316 272 08 92. At the time I took this picture I forgot the inner seal, #115 272 14 92. On top the 24 springs, the retaining clip and the spring retainer, below that the K1 piston, and on the right the steel clutch plates. The line up is from the piston side on:
6 1 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 2, where
1: 1.3 mm 112 272 02 26
2: 2.4 mm 100 272 01 26
3: 3.5 mm 112 272 05 26
5: 112 272 02 25 clutch plate
6: 0.6mm 112 272 14 62





First we mount the lip seal on the outside of the piston. Here you can see the result. Be sure the lip points down to the back of the clutch pack, as you can see here!





Then we mount the other seal on the part of the drum, over which the piston slides. Again, lip towards the back! This picture was supposed to show this seal, but is not very clear.





Now, in order to get the lip seal inside the bottom cylinder, you have to compress it into the walls. The best way to do this is to have another cylinder, of which the bottom is the same size as the cylinder part of the K1 drum, and the top is wider. At one point MB had a special tool for that, 116 589 02 61. NLA... So, I had one made, as you can see here. BTW, the red goo is specially made for assembling transmissions, it dissolves in the fluid later on. I use it for all sliding surfaces, bearings, gears, etc.





Here piston and drum, you can see the inside seal (black) inside the drum:





Here the drum with the tool inserted. Again, top of tool larger diameter, bottom the same as the drum. So the lip seal squeezes into the bottom part. Some people will try thin wire, or ground saw blades, etc. However, if you nick or ruin lip seal, you will not know until the whole thing is together.





Here the drum with tool, and with piston seated at the bottom:





Now the tool removed, and the piston is mounted:





Springs (24) are put into their holes:





Spring retainer on top of springs:





Spring compressor with adapter ring (see earlier in this thread) on top of spring pack:





Springs compressed, see recess for retainer clip on top of spring retainer:





retainer clip in place:





Compressor removed, everything seems OK:





In the mean time, the six lined plates were soaking in ATF, since they are new:





First plates mounted, steel one visible:





Now a lined plate. You have to try to line up these plates, so insertion of the inner splines is easier.





Now we need to insert the input shaft, which also has the splined part that inserts into the clutches. I also needed to put the ball valve back into the input shaft. This valve prevents the fluid clutch from draining. Here are the parts, including the adapted tool for mouting. The internal clip is mounted low into the shaft, so you need special pliers.





Here the bottom of the input shaft, with ball and spring inserted, but no clip yet. The gear you see is the sun gear of the first planetary gear set, mounted to the input shaft.





On the input shaft itself is a steel seal, here is the new one.





This seal has hooks, as you can see here.





We also need to mount the bearing for the front of the input shaft, since you cannot get to this later. It will be mounted against the main pump later. Since there is some grease on it, it will not fall down. The "gear" you see is actually the splined parts that goes inside the clutches.





Now we are sliding the shaft into the clutch pack. If the clutches are not lined up, this will be difficult. I mount the drum on an adapter in a large vise, so the input shaft can stick out on the bottom. Here you see a failed attempt, the shaft is laying on one of the lower clutch plates. You almost need to feel 6 distinct passes when the shaft slides in the clutches.





Here you see why there was a failure, the lowest plate is out of alignment. With a pick we re-align the plates.





Success, the K1 clutch is finished. Notice the spline is almost flush with the clutches. On top the sun gear on the input shaft.






I forgot to mention that you will have to messure the play of the clutch pack. You do this by measuring the distance from the top of the drum to the pack with a depth gage. It has to be 10.8-11.4mm, mine was 11.9mm. So I had to add another 0.6mm steel plate to get there.

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 01/06/2010 10:33:58
Message:

Hello Albert,

I'm glad to see you've had a chance to get back to the cars, and I love the highly detailed posts you are taking the time to make.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/06/2010 15:19:04
Message:

Thanks for the remarks, Chris...

Now on to the next subject, the K2 clutch. This is the clutch that locks up the rear planetary gear set in 4th gear. It also contains the one way clutch, that is used in reverse and first gear.

To make everything more clear, here is a picture of the inside of the K4B 050 transmission. In the previous posting we assembled the input shaft and K1, which is also the drum for brake band B3, the reverse brake band. In this post we will assemble clucth K2, which is also the drum for brake band B2.
Notice the following:
-The input shaft is connected to sun gear S1, and one side of clutch K1.
-The planet gears P1 are connected to the other side of clutch K1, drum of brake band B3, ring gear R2, and the intermediate shaft.
-Ring gear R3 is connected to planet gears P2, and through the hollow shaft to the one way clutch.
-Sun gear S2 is connected to drum of brake band B1.
-The other side of the intermediate shaft is connected to clutch K2 and ring gear R3.
-Planet gears P3 are connected to the output shaft.
-Sun gear S3 is connected to the drum of brake band B2, to the other side of clutch K2, and to the other side of the one way clutch.





Here the line up of all parts used in clutch K2. On the left the lined plates, same parts as used in K1, #112 272 02 25. Bottom left the springs (28 of them) and retainer clip, in the middle from top to bottom: K2 piston, piston lip seals #109 272 01 92 and #115 272 14 92, and the piston housing. On the right the steel plates.
Line up from piston side: 6 3 5 4 5 4 5 4 5 4
3: 3.5mm 112 272 05 26
4: 5.5mm 100 272 00 26
5: lined plates 112 272 02 25
6: 0.6mm 112 272 14 62





The lip seal mounted on the piston, again with the lip pointed towards the bottom of the housing. (Lip pointing up in picture).





Here the inner lip seal, mounted on the piston housing. Again the lip points down. The hole you see is one of the bores for the fluid, that is supplied through a hollow shaft on the center bearing support.





Because of the construction of these parts you cannot use a special tool like we used on K1. However, since you can get to the seal, the special tool is a ballpoint, which you use to push the seal in at the same time applying pressure to the piston. On top the piston, on the bottom the housing.





28 springs in position... In the background the inevitable can of beer.





The part that retains the springs is also the outside housing of the one way clutch.





Here the springs compressed with the same spring compressor as used for K1. This is the compressor designed for the 722.3 clutch packs. I did not make an adapter ring, since you can easily use the setup as shown.





Looking down at the piston in housing. The needle bearing goes around a shaft connected to the center bearing support. The spline has a groove for the retaining clip. This spline is used for connection to the outside housing of the one way clutch.





A side view. The notched part at the bottom is the piston housing. The notches are used to lock the housing into the drum for brake band B2, used in first, second and third gear. Inside the piston with the spring holes, on top the outside housing of the one way clutch.





The parts for the one way clutch. The two brass bearing rings are the upper and lower bearings for the rollers, the ring on the bottom left is the inside of the one way clutch, in which the hollow shaft sticks, and on the bottom right the roller cage with rollers. These rollers are bone shaped, which causes the one way effect.





First we mount the bottom bearing:





Then we stick the roller cage into the housing, then the middle part. Here you can see how it works: the bone shaped rollers are under an angle mounted between the inner and outer surfaces. Going clock wise is impossible, counter clock wise is easy. In this case a picture is worth a thousand words...





After mounting the top bearing plate and inserting the clip. You should be able to turn the inside part counter clock wise only.





THis is the drum for brake band B2, in which clutch pack K2 resides. The splines section on top is for K2, and the smaller section at the bottom houses the rear planetary gear set. Clutch plates will lay on the big snap ring in the middle of the drum. The notches on top are for connecting the K2 piston housing, which we just assembled.





Here the same drum, with the first clutch plate inserted. This is the last number '4' in the clutch plate line up, since the piston will come from the top!





And the first lined plate (number '5' in the clutch plate line up).






After stacking all plates we check for play, which has to be around 16 mm. Again, I had to add a 0.6mm plate.




1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/06/2010 16:31:26
Message:

Now we are ready to stick the gear train together.

We start with the intermediate shaft. The spline on top will stick later into the planet carrier of the first planetary gear set. The large spline on the bottom is the section that sticks into the lined plates of the K2 clutch. The notches at the bottom are connecting the intermediate shaft to ring gear S3 of the rear planetary gear set, which you see on the left. Inside the ring gear on towards the top you see the grooves for the snap ring and lock that will hold the intermediate shaft.





You will have to mount the round ring first in the top groove, then insert the notched part of the intermediate shaft, and then use the rectangular lock on the other side. Here the parts mounted together.





Here a detail of the above. You can see the round ring, starting in the fourth tooth from the right.





And a detail of the other side. Now you can see the rectangular lock.





The drum for brake band K2 is mounted on the vise, clutch plates upwards. The intermediate shaft with ring gear R3 is stuck into position, but still laying ON the clutch plates. Some wiggling is required again, in order to get the big spline into the lined clutch plates. You basically have to feel 4 distinct moves for each lined clutch plate to engage. Again, lining up these plates beforehand is very helpful.





Here the result. What you see is again the drum of brake band B2. Inside the ring gear R3 (rear planetary gear set) connected to the intermediate shaft. Under this ring gear (invisible) is the clutch pack K2 and the one way clutch. Towards the top of the drum the rectangular lock that will hold the output shaft later.





Here is the output shaft, connected to the planet gears P3 of the rear planetary gear set. The top spline holds the flange for the drive shaft and the output bearing, the bottom spline holds the center grooved bearing, the parking lock ring and drives the governor and secondary pumps. Typical for the K4B 050 transmission is the use of double planet gears, in order to handle the enormous M100 torque.





Here is the output shaft again, together with the sun gear S3 of the rear planetary gear set. Notice the radial and axial needle bearings in the bottom part of the input shaft. Also, as mentioned before, use the special 'tranny grease' (what a word).





This is the way to check for play in this section. You can adjust the play by adding or removing thin washers behind the axial needle bearing. In my case it was fine.





Here a side view of the output shaft and the sun gear S3 together.





Now we stick the output shaft with sun gear S3 into the drum of brake band B2. This completes the rear planetary gear set. We mount another rectangular lock, as can be seen right under the notches on top of the drum. In the vise is the intermediate shaft, on top the output shaft.





On the center bearing carrier plate we mount two new steel seals on the shaft. Here a close up of this. Visible are from top to bottom: an small groove for the seal, a larger groove for fluid supply, and another small groove for the second seal. The large cutout in the larger groove is the fluid supply hole. The fluid is supplied through a tube that sticks into the center bearing carrier plate.





Here a close up of the the steel seals mounted. The ends of this seal hook into each other, as can be seen in the top groove.





The drum for brake band B2 is flipped 180 degrees in the vise, now the output shaft points down and the intermediate shaft points up. The center bearing carrier plate is mounted into the drum. Pointing up you see the end of the intermediate shaft, and the radial and axial needle bearings for drum B2. Drum B2 also contains the sun gear S2 for the center planetary gear set.





This concludes the section of the gear set below (or after) the center bearing carrier.




1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/07/2010 11:54:23
Message:

Now we will assemble the front part of the gear train. This consists of the drums for B1 and B3 brake bands and the central and front planetary gear sets.

First we will assemble the ring gear R2 of the central planetary gear set. Here a picture of the parts. Left the connector, right the ring gear R2. The connector will connect the ring gear R2 to the planet gears P1 of the front planetary gear set.





Ring gear R2 has two grooves: one round groove and a rectangular groove. These grooves will accomodate rings, which will lock up the connector. Here a detail.





We first move the connector into the ring gear, as shown.





Then we mount the round ring into the round groove.





Next we mount the rectangular lock ring into the rectangular groove. This will fix the connector plate into the ring gear. Here a detail.





Here we see the mounted ring gear R2 on the right. On the left the planet gears P2 from the central planetary gear set. These are mounted to a carrier, which also is connected to the hollow shaft. The hollow shaft will connect the planet gears P2 to the inside of the one way clutch.





Here another view of the couple.





Now we move the ring gear R2 over the planet gears P2. It just kind of floats there, until we connect something to the connector. Here you see the result. Take a good look at the holes in the connector. There are three threaded holes, at 12:00, 04:00 and 08:00. The other three sets of holes are important later on...





Next part we need is the ring gear R1 of the front planetary gear set. Here is is, on the left. The notches on the bottom will stick into the notches in the planet gear carrier P2, which you see on the right.





Here you see the ring gear R1 stuck into the planet gear carrier P2. On the left bottom a spacer ring, on the top the lock. The spacer ring has three notches on one side, asymmetrical. There is a notch at each quarter of the ring, except for one. Let's say the notches are at 03:00, 06:00 and 09:00. There is nothing at 12:00.





First we stick in the spacer ring, notches up, onto the mounted ring gear R1. Then we put the rectangular lock ring into the groove. Here the detail:





We bend a new wire lock into the shape in this picture:





Now we move the spacer ring with the notches in such a way that the 12:00 position (no notch) is right under the opening in the mounted rectangular lock ring. We then use the wire lock, stuff the square part we bend into it into the opening of the lock ring, and stuff the rest of the wire lock in between the lock ring and the ring gear R1. At the position of the notches, we stuff the ring into these. This secures the wire lock in place.





The next part we need is the planets gears P1 carrier of the front planetary gear set. Here you see one side of it:





And here the other side. The six shafts that hold the P1 planet gears stick a few mm's out of the carrier plate. There are holes in the connector plate of ring gear R2, in which these shafts stick. These are the holes we talked about a few pics up.





Now we move the P1 planet gear carrier onto the connector plate of R2, lock the 6 shaft protrusions into the six corresponding holes, smear a tiny bit of LockTite onto the three Allen bolts, and bolt the carrier to the connector plate. Torque at 30 Nm...





The final part we need is the drum for brake band B1, connected to sun gear S2. Here it is...





Now we have to mount this drum onto the rest of our work. Here you see the drum B1 on the left, and the front plus center planetary gear sets on the right. Visible are the planet gears P2 and the hollow shaft. On the far top right we see the notches of planet gear carrier P1, which we just bolted on.





Here the result. This is the drum for brake band B1, the hollow shaft, and the front plus center planetary gear sets. The only thing missing on the gear sets is sun gear S1, which we will see shortly.





Here looking from the other side. You are looking at the front planetary gear set, minus its sun gear S1.





And here is that missing sun gear S1. It is mounted to clutch assembly K1, which we put together earlier. So on the left our B1 drum, with front and center planetary gear sets, and on the right drum B3, with clutch K1 and sun gear S1. On the other and is the input shaft. All we do now is stick these together, and secure the assembly with a lock ring, that goes to a groove inside drum B3. Unfortunately I forgot to take a picture of this.





In the mean time, our rear gear train assembly plus center bearing carrier plate are still in the vise:





We now take the front part we just assembled, and stick this with the hollow shaft down into the rear assembly in the vise.
Since the whole thing is a little top heavy now, I took it all out and layed the complete gear train on the table.
Here it is, from left to right: input shaft, drum B3, drum B1, center bearing carrier plate, drum B2 and output shaft.





This concludes the assembly of the gear train. I have put it away in a clean plastic bag into a RubberMaid container. We will need it again when we are ready to put it into the housing.

Next: main pump, secondary pumps, governor, housing, brake band pistons, vacuum regulator, valve body...

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: juan
Replied on: 01/08/2010 13:15:53
Message:

Wow wow. Such detail with so many good shots!!! Will say it again: I wish I had seen all of this a few months back when I had to rebuild my transmission. Manual are OK but this is the best!

Thanks!!!

Juan


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/18/2010 12:22:38
Message:

Had some time this weekend, so up to the next step. That would be the transmission pumps, and first of all the primary (or main) pump.
Here we go:

The parts for the main pump. Here we see on top the the intermediate plate, middle left the drive gear, middle right the driven (or ring) gear, and on the bottom right the pump housing.





The primary pump housing mounts into the front transmission cover, which we see here. The areas around the circumference are where the gasket goes later, and are cleaned with very fine steel wool.





Here the other side of the cover, the outside.





There are some new parts that go into the primary pump. Shown are the main gasket between the front cover and transmission housing, the rubber O-ring that goes around the pump housing, the radial sealing ring for the fluid coupler shaft, two steel sealing rings for the K1 clutch and two aluminum crush washers.





These parts all come from a separate gasket kit, #100 270 23 01.





First thing is to drive the radial sealing ring into the pump housing. Use a fitting seal driver (as shown), and drive the seal into the housing. I always put a tiny film of gasket sealant around the metal OD of the sealing ring.





Drive the seal to the point where the radius of the front metal part of the ring just sticks out of the housing (as per fig 27-14/7). DO NOT GO THE WHOLE WAY IN!





Then mount the O-ring into the groove around the pump housing. When it's in, be sure it is not twisted and coat with a tiny film of tranny grease.





This is a close up of the side of the driven (ring) gear for the primary pump. Note the chamfer on the left. This chamfer goes towards the bottom of the housing, pointing towards the engine.





Here are the gears into the pump housing. The chamfer of the large gear is down wards in this picture. Also note that the driven (smaller) gear has the cut outs for the fluid coupler shaft pointed towards the transmission. The gears should look flush with the pump housing like in this picture. Be sure to use tranny grease between both gears and gears and housing. This will also help when first rotating the pump, the grease will "prime" the pump and start pumping action faster.





Put the intermediate plate into the front cover, and coat one side with grease. You have to be sure the cut outs are into the right position, the square hole in the bottom should correspond with the square hole in the cover. I put two bolts through the cover to get things started. Then use all four bolts to pull the pump housing into the cover evenly. Torque to 20Nm.





Now mount the two steel oil sealing rings for clutch K1 onto the shaft that's part of the cover. Here one is in it's groove (bottom), the other one is still laying on top.





The end result, inside of the front transmission cover. The front and input shaft of the gear set will later be supported by the center shaft.





And here the front of the cover. Later you will see this in the bell housing.





And now we bag the front cover with pump in a plastic bag, and store for final assembly of the transmission.





1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/18/2010 13:23:39
Message:

Time for the secondary pumps. These smaller gear pumps are mounted in the rear housing of the transmission. They are mounted together with the governor on a center bearing cover, that also contains the drive gears for pumps and governor. You can see here how. This is a picture of the transmission with the rear cover removed. In the lower center the output shaft of the transmission. Above that, mounted with 8 bolts, is the aluminum bearing cover. It contains the drive shaft for the pumps and governor, you see the gear right above the output shaft. The aluminum part with the 4 small cylinders (3 visible) on the left is the governor. The blackish cast iron housing on the right contains the secondary pumps.





Some more about the secondary pumps. The smaller one of the two is the governor pump, and helps with maintaining oil pressure to the governor at higher car speeds.
The larger one is really called the secondary pump. It as also found on many other early transmissions. It is a backup pump for the main pump, and its purpose is the ability to push start the car. The idea is as follows: when you have a dead battery (or a low one, that's unable to turn the starter) you can push the car (or pull it with another one) and get the engine running. That's easy with a manual transmission.
Now with an automatic transmission you are completely dependant on fluid pressure. Since the main (primary) pump is coupled to the engine, there is no pressure. But when you push the car, with the transmission in Neutral, the transmission output shaft starts to turn (through the car's differential). And so the secondary pump, which is driven by the transmission output shaft, also starts to turn, and generates fluid pressure. With enough car pushing speed, enough pressure builds up to get the clutches / brake bands going. Now you pull the transmission into second gear (D2) and the right clutches / brake bands are activated, and so the engine starts to turn and hopefully fires up.
This scenario was used up till the 722.3 transmissions, mounted into the 126 cars. However, later models of this series had the secondary pumps omitted, because no one ever used them.
And somehow I find it hard to believe any one ever push started a 600...


Anyway, time to assemble these pumps. Here are the parts, all nice and clean. Top left the secondary pump housing and right the governor pump housing, top center the intermediate plate. Middle left to right: govenor pump driving gear, secondary pump driven gear, governor pump driven gear and secondary pump driving gear. On the bottom the mounting bolts, and on the bottom right the drive bushing that connects the pumps to the drive shaft.





There are some parts that cannot be removed, like this one way ball valve on the intermediate plate. Be sure it is clean and free, you should hear it move when you shake the plate.






There is also a piston with spring on the housing, that cannot be removed. Be sure it's clean and can be moved.





The secondary pump housing.





And the governor pump gears. Left the driven gear, right the driving gear. The notch on the latter's ID is for the drive shaft.





The secondary pump gears. Left the driven gear, right the driving gear. There is a ball on the shaft of the right gear (unfortunately not visable) that goes into the notch of the governor pump driving gear.




With ample grease (remember the priming action) we mount the two governor gears into the govenor pump housing. The shaft on the left is part of the housing. The driven gear goes over this shaft, and the driving gear (with notch) is on the right.





Place the intermediate plate onto the governor pump housing.





Now place the secondary pump gears. The left one is the driven gear, and goes over the shaft mounted into the governor pump housing. The right gear is the secondary pump driving gear, and is the only gear mounted on a shaft. This shaft you see on the right. It has a ball mounted on one side which sticks into the govenor pump driving gear below it. Wiggle the shaft to be sure the ball is in the notch.





Now mount the secondary pump housing, and secure the assembly with one cheese head screw. here the back of the assembly.





Here a top view of the assembly: on top the secondary pump housing, the drive shaft sticks out of it. On the bottom the governor pump housing.





And here a view of the other side of the assembly. Visible are the secondary pump gears.





Now up to the bearing cover with drive shaft. The housing of this cover also contains some valves. On the bottom three gaskets, that come in gasket kit #100 270 22 01.





Here all the parts that go into the governor, and that are needed to complete the assembly. Refering to chapter 27-16: Top left to right: wire circlip 18, O-ring 17, spring guide cap 16, compensating washer 19, compression spring 20, and spring plate 21.
Next row left to right: compression spring 25, spring guide pin 23, pressure control piston 22, and governor housing 15.
Next row 4 cheese head screws for mounting the governor.
Fourth row down some bolts that do not below here (sorry).
Fifth row down: compression spring 48, compensating washer 47, pressure control piston 46, end plate 50 and cheese head screws 51.
Bottom row: compression spring over flow valve outside 45, same inside 44, compensating washers 43 and governor pressure transmitter piston 42.





48, 47 and 46:





45, 44, 43 and 42:





48, 47 and 46 on the right, 45, 44, 43 and 42 on the left.





Secure with plate plus gasket:





Line up of 18, 17, 16, 19, and 21:





Mount these parts on top of governor, here you see 21 (spring plate) into governor. Here you also see the numbering of the govenor parts, important later.






Here everything stacked. The new O-ring is around 16 (spring guide cap). It is a little tricky to push everything in and mount the circlip.





Now 22, 23 and 25 go into the other side of the governor. The spring guide pin 23 looks dirty, but that is just in the picture somehow.





Here everything mounted in the back of the governor, on the right. On the left the bearing cover, I filed off the nasty little burrs on the bottom of the slotted shaft. Be sure you orient the bottom of the slotted shaft (06:00 position) with govenor position '1'.





Govenor mounted on bearing cover with drive.





Now we mount the drive bushing on the pump drive shaft:





And mount the pumps also to the bearing cover.





Here the final result. Be sure you can turn the gear in the center easily!!!






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/19/2010 11:17:02
Message:

Here a story on removing the reaction valves. In the K4B 050 manual MB warns not to take these out, since in order to do so you have to remove the oil tubes. These oil tubes are the small tubes that connect the reaction valves to the valve body. They are pressed into the aluminum transmission case, and trying to pry these out with pliers or a screw driver would damage the bore. In a picture in the manual they show a special tool, but in the text they tell you this tool is not available.
Anyway, after cleaning the transmission case with the soda blaster, I found out that a lot of soda found it's way into the reaction valves. So I decided to take these out, to be sure that they are OK and clean. After looking at MB's special tool I determined that the trick in removing these tubes is to find a way to pull them out straight, without prying or wiggling.
Here are these tubes and valves. The tubes are on top, pressed into the case. The reaction valves are the larger steel cylindrical parts below.





A little blurp about reaction valves. These valves are often overlooked when rebuilding a transmission. The function of these valves is to determine the exact moment when a brake band drum stops spinning. At that moment the command is given to lock the brake band, so they are very important for smooth shifting. There are two sides to a brake band: the side that the piston pushes into, and the side where the brake band connects to the transmission case. The reaction valve is mounted on the side of the brake band where it connects to the transmission. The oil tubes have a flange in them that is conical shaped at the bottom. Here is what they look like:





So in order to grab it from the top, you need to find a way to slide something over the tube that grabs around the flange (or collar). I came up with this part. The bottom of this part (on the left side) has a ridge (hard to see), the top has M8 screw thread, and the bottom part can move more open or closed. The idea is to move the bottom part over the tube flange, to squeeze the tool, and pull up (towards the right in the picture).





Here the tool positioned on the tube. Now we need to squeeze the bottom part. Later I might mount a small bolt side ways, but for now we will use a more primitive method.





And that is a hose clamp...





We put some spacers on the transmission case:





And clamp a drilled plate on the case.





Now we mount a bolt into the end of the tool, and position the nut plus washer as shown.





Here a look from the bottom.





When we start turning the nut clock wise while holding the bolt stationary, the tool will move upwards. Here you can see the tube about half way pulled out, completely in a straight line up.





And here the tube is out.





Now we are ready to pull the reaction valves out





When we will mount the tubes later again, we will use the same plate and bolts. However, with these adapters we will push the tube back into the hole, in an exact straight line.





Here is how the adapter slides over the tube:






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 01/19/2010 11:41:12
Message:

zeer zeer listig, albert


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/19/2010 12:34:39
Message:

Now I come to a real problem in the K4B 050 situation. An that is the valve body. As far as I know, there is not any documentaion available on how it is supposed to stick together.
Since MB produced only about 10,000 of these transmissions (2600 600's and 6500 6.3's) they probably never documented this valve body publicly. Here is what I know:
-the only document I have of the K4B 050 transmission has a chapter on the valve body and some lay outs. However, there are many differences in the valve bodies that I have taken apart compared to the manual.
-the two valve bodies that I have apart have some notable differences.
-according to my EPC, there were two part numbers for the 6.3 transmission: 109 270 09 01 and 109 270 14 01, with valve bodies 100 270 13 07 and 100 270 15 07.
-according to my EPC, there were four part numbers for the 600 transmission: 100 270 03 01, 109 270 09 01, 109 270 14 01 and 100 270 18 01.

So there were changes during production, and the 600 had some of it own unique versions. What it looks like to me is that the 600 started with it's own version (which is probably on mine, #248), then the 600 shared the same transmission with the 6.3, and than after the 6.3 production ceased the 600 got a newer version once again.

Questions:
-am I right about the above?
-does anyone know about any factory documentation about the valve bodies?

Since it is unlikely that there is any documentation, I decided to document these valve bodies myself, and base it all on what I know and find out in the future. I own the following transmissions:
- 600 #248, very likely the original transmission.
- a spare transmission that came with my 600 purchase along with a 600 and a 6.3 spare motor. In storage right now.
- 6.3 #38??, in storage as parts car, have no idea about the transmission.
- 6.3 #0347, in my garage, probably with original transmission
- 6.3 #5745, on the lift, transmission apart. I do not know of this is the original transmission, but I know it was rebuilt in the past, with errors (see earlier posts in this thread regarding clutch line ups).
- a transmission I bought, a rebuilt by MB. Hopefully this is my best example of a correct transmission. Is apart right now, and will be documented.
- the transmission that is still connected to motor #00029, a very early 6.3 engine.
- the transmission I got on EBay last year. Haven't even opened the box yet.

So that is a total of eight, which I could look at in some point in the future.

Of the two I have apart right now I have completely documented the valve bodies. Both valve bodies have been taken apart, pictures have been taken of every step while disassembly took place, every part has been cleaned, every part has been measured and photographed, and has been stored in a plastic case.
I have taken measurements of all pistons and springs. The pistons have been measured with the following scheme: all over length, diameter of each machined piston part, lenght of each machined piston part. The springs: all over lenght, diameter and wire diameter.
Then there are pictures of where each of these pistons and springs belong in the valve body. Pictures were taken of each spring and psiton in detail, and all springs and pistons have been stored according to their designation number in the MB manual.

Examples:
Line up bottom part valve body:






Line up top part valve body:






Line up middle part valve body:






Then there are detailed pics of these line ups:






And pics of each part:










A complete set of valve body internals:










Plus details of the body castings, like this:






I have found differences in the two bodies I have apart. Please, please, if anyone has more info, let me know.
If anyone is interested in all details and pictures, I could be persuaded to share.



1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 01/19/2010 13:26:39
Message:

Hi Albert,

according my elder EPC there are several numbers for that part for the 6.3

You found :
"-according to my EPC, there were two part numbers for the 6.3 transmission: 109 270 09 01 and 109 270 14 01, with valve bodies 100 270 13 07 and 100 270 15 07.
-according to my EPC, there were four part numbers for the 600 transmission: 100 270 03 01, 109 270 09 01, 109 270 14 01 and 100 270 18 01"

In additon I found for the 6.3 the numbers 100.270.11.07 and 100.270.07.07 and 100.270.05.07.

According my EPC 100.270.13.07 = the same as 100.270.15.07 plus the part 100.270.00.98 together.

For the 600 I have no EPC and must check my partsbook, which is an elder one, so not all numbers and changes will be mentioned in that older partsbook.

For knowing if your 600 or 6.3 still has the original gearbox, you have to check your datacard on which the number of the gearbox will be mentioned.

Until now I have not seen any documentation about these gearboxes or parts.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 01/19/2010 13:34:20
Message:

Hi Albert,

Some basic comments: I believe the early 600 transmissions used the 300SE valve body, i.e. the 112 part number. I have five different editions of the 112 trans parts books.

There are three fundamental versions of the 112 transmission, the "300SE", the "300SE-E" and the "300SE-EH". Note that the 300SE transmission is the very first version of the Benz four-speed automatic.

I have a service book for these transmissions. Each version of the transmission is discussed, and there is a good amount of detail about precisely what is different between each of the versions (mostly valving component changes). There is also what is refered to as the "standard" transmission. Either I've missed it, or it is assumed to be understood, but I don't know 100% which transmission this "standard" reference applies to. I assume that the "standard" transmission is the last version: the 300SE-EH unit.

The transmission in the 600 is virtually identical to the W112 unit, with the obvious exceptions of strength and size. The 600 trans was first put into production in 1963, while the W112 cars were still getting the "300SE" transmission. Since we know that there are two major revisions to the 300SE trans after that point, it is reasonable to assume that the 600 trans saw some of these same changes. Taking this a step further, it may be true that the changes documented in my book might apply to the 600 trans as well. Some quality time spent with your K4B-050 parts book and the 300SE trans parts books may bear this out.

Regarding the different part numbers for the 600 and 6.3 transmissions, these might be representative of very minor changes. For example, the two different 6.3 trans part numbers refer specifically to the external shift arm. The first part number is for the early cars that have "park" located at the rear end of the shift gate on the tunnel, and the other number is for later cars with "park" at the forward end of the gate. The only difference between these two transmissions is the external arm on the trans to the linkage attaches to.

There is also a subtle little difference on the 600's transmission compared to the 6.3's. This transmission has a little feature that I wish all of them had. On that same external arm, the 600's transmission has a longer nub for the bushing to slide over, and this nub is drilled so that a washer and cotter pin can be installed after the bushing goes on so that if the bushing fails, the shift rod cannot fall of the arm and leave the car dead in the water. Since it was already there, I cannot imagine why this wasn't included on the 6.3 trans. All these little differences require different part numbers.

That said, I think I remember that the gear ratios in the 600 trans and 6.3 trans are also different (don't hold me to this). As it relates to the valve body, the K4B-050 parts book (Edition A, 1968) shows almost zero differences between the two units except for some end plates.

The Edition A and B (May, 1965) parts books for the 600 do include the entire parts lists for the transmissions, and would document the state of the early transmissions well. I am not aware of any publication that covers these transmissions between the 600 Edition B parts book in May 1965 until the K4B-050 Edition A parts book in May 1968.

If you have time for it, and would like to get into it, I would be happy to loan out the various books I have on the subject. It is a rather hairy subject, and could sure use some in-depth research.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 01/20/2010 11:13:31
Message:

Chris,

As far as I know the 112 transmission has three clutches instead of the two in the K4B 050, and the latter also has the one way clutch. If that's true, the valve body has to be significantly different.

I do have the parts book for the K4B 050 transmission (thanks to a good friend in Colorado), but unfortunately the valve body is not shown in detail. Take a look at page 26 of the 10153 parts book. it shows a total of three springs and one piston on the top part, 5 springs and two pistons on the middle part, and two springs and one piston on the bottom part of the valve body. And as you can see in my pics, there are many more. The closest documentation I have is the K4B 050 rebuild supplement, as shown here:














But these are in more than one case not correct to what I have found in my two valve bodies. If you have any thing like the pics above on the 112 transmissions, I would be glad to compare that to what I have found.

I am 99.9999% sure that the gear ratio's in the 600 and 6.3 transmissions are the same. I think the big difference is that in the original K4B 050 that was installed in the 600 the clutch plate line up was different. As of 600 #1199 and transmission #1391 MB introduced a new clutch plate line up, which was carried over in the 6.3. I think that coincides with the introduction of the 109 part number transmissions in the 600, as per my EPC. Then, when the production of the 6.3 was done, thet K4B 050 was installed again in the 600 with a 100 part number. There must have been some updates...

The most significant difference I have found is in piston #4 (see above pics). This is the one in the MB rebuild transmission:





And this is the same piston in my 6.3 #5745 transmission:






A big difference, but I have no idea what the result of this change is nor if it is correct or someone screwed up. At this moment I have the tendency to go with the MB rebuild. I also might opt for taking tranny #3 (my EBay purchase) apart and see what's inside that.

I will take you up on your offer of comparing parts books and rebuild manuals if you have something more detailed than I have.
In the mean time, I will keep documenting what I have, and if there is interest, I could put all the pics and sizes on a CD or post them on this board. However, there is a lot of parts inside these valve bodies...

1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 01/20/2010 16:34:22
Message:

The manual for the DB automatic in the W111 has the missing details for the 6.3 (etc ) trans. The valve body has lots of differences but as i have found ,the later 722 trans had 600 different modifications over 10 years.I would image that the DB trans is no different.
Normally a workshop would use the W111 manual to provide information and the various upgrades would be incorporated into the manual as they arrived from Stuttgart. Also the guy doing the trans would have been trained to fix them so would understand how to work with the manual and the supplements. The 600-6.3 trans manual is basically a supplement to the original W111 manual . I may have some info on the valve body amongst my stuff here and i'll forward on what i have,If I have it. I do know however that the valve body is comprised of two layers,quite unlike later types .I do remember that there is plate with legs that secure the valve body to dismantle it.


quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/03/2010 21:43:48
Message:

Albert/Chris/Ron

In reading your combined documentation on the '050 regarding reaction valves (great tool you made there), you mention the operation of the reaction valve -are they pressurized via the tube you must remove to extract the reaction valve or is that dump-off pressure? I ask for I just installed an '050 that has no engagement of gears except 1st gear which does not engage enough to move the car. This is a commercially rebuilt trans -just-. I was hoping it has a rolled servo seal or something so I pressurized the servos which work as designed. The reaction valves do nothing except bypass fluid -no restriction at all (and my memory is faulty) Is this correct?

I'm sure I'll have to remove it and ship it back -I'd rather waste a couple of hours and determine the fault.
Thanks in advance

mpmorris


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 02/03/2010 22:32:36
Message:

Mike,how is the line pressure ? .It sounds like stuck valve is dumping the pressure i.e ,idle bypass pressure. The reaction valves get thier pressure from the valve body. I would say that when a spindle valve moves past a port to send pressure to a band piston ,the residual pressure is sent to the residual valves to lock the band increasing the pressure.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/03/2010 23:16:54
Message:

add-on
I answered my own question by checking a spare '050 -same -no resistance -I guess that is a nominal value.

Back together, check the running and modulation pressures and then I guess I'll be pulling it back out. We'll see.

mpm


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/03/2010 23:27:31
Message:

Thanks Ron.
Before pulling the valve body I simply cracked a cooler hose to be certain I had a front pump working and it seemed acceptable -the trans did fill from dry in very short order so it was a surprise to have nothing but partial engagement of 1st gear.
I'm going to pop the valve body back in and get back to basics by checking line pressure -should have done that first.
I'll accomplish this before I go home tonight.
mpm


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/05/2010 14:01:06
Message:

Hello

Does anybody out there know if step pressure can be measured without turning (driving)the output shaft, ie; engine at idle in gear?

mpm


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 02/05/2010 17:20:31
Message:

I am sure it can only done with the shaft driving. could you try it with the prop shaft disconnected? .Is the gasket between the top and bottom of the valve body in the right way?

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/06/2010 16:06:49
Message:

Ron

good call on the valve body. All mechanical of the trans is in good order. short of removing the drums, I've been thoroughly through the transmission -less the valve body because I specifically requested to leave it alone as there were no shift faults, never over-heated, no debris, routinely serviced, etc, etc, -only a snapped band (should have done the job myself). Well, after being told thursday that the valve body had not been disassembled and then calling them back Friday after no faults were found in the mechanical assembly of the trans and again asking them to reverify the valve body was virginal, found that in fact it had been violated. So now the valve body is on my bench waiting for Sunday to open 'er up -without interruption- and find what the dickens is the fault. Last night, before going home, I did pop open the bottom shift sleeve to ascertain if the primary and secondary check valves and springs were in place -yes indeed. I did not look at the gasket -so, will have a look see.

thankx, mpm

footnote: question about step pressure was that not having engagement, the output shaft doesn't turn and i had zero step pressure. (front pump is correctly assembled, rear pump pressure regulator and step pressure pistons/springs/shims are correct, modulator is correctly assembled).


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/07/2010 15:55:46
Message:

Swapped out valve bodies with a know working unit and now have forward gears -no reverse. Checked reverse piston in the lower sleeve -it's free, checked B3 servo and band adjustment -ok; rechecked B2 brake servo ok; then I noticed that the output shaft turns both directions with very little resistance -not good-, so I've concluded there is an assembly problem with the gear set as the K1 assembly moves freely in both directions --out the trans comes -again!
mpm


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/08/2010 02:36:33
Message:

Albert
This is such a great post -so my Freilauf is at fault, maybe. I initially checked clutches/clutch clearance for K1 (1mm out of specs (.95 +/- .25), now I've pulled the drum set out and will check free-wheeling clutch F in the morning
mpm


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 02/08/2010 17:49:51
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by mpmorris

Swapped out valve bodies with a know working unit and now have forward gears -no reverse. Checked reverse piston in the lower sleeve -it's free, checked B3 servo and band adjustment -ok; rechecked B2 brake servo ok; then I noticed that the output shaft turns both directions with very little resistance -not good-, so I've concluded there is an assembly problem with the gear set as the K3 assembly moves freely in both directions --out the trans comes -again!
mpm


You can say that again! . Generally reverse locks and even a car with a broken band can driven backwards. So if the forward gears are working,there is a major problem with reverse. I would be camped out side the trans rebuilder while they fixed it.

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/09/2010 17:31:03
Message:

S0, again, as Albert posted:

"When we put this back together, we have to be sure that this part goes in the right way, otherwise there will be no reverse and no first gear..."

We, meaning they, installed the 'F' clutch reversed. I can turn it counter clockwise. I hope this is the last of the problems.
mpm


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 02/09/2010 19:23:40
Message:

Well Mike, now I have to know who it was that "rebuilt" this transmission.

This sort of stuff is SO typical, and obviously, so very maddening.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/10/2010 11:16:46
Message:

Good Morning Chris.

I'd prefer not to mention who 'they' are as over the years all other o'hauls produced through their shop have had no significant problems. The short comings of one employee can harm the reputation of an otherwise excellent firm.
The owner of the company, a long time friend and work associate, has been extremely helpful during this ordeal. I had elected to 'sublet' this particular job due to time constraints and my inability to work on an involved task without interruption. A type 3 or 6/7 transmission is a bit more straight forward and requires less intimacy.
I will say though that I was pleased to find K2 clutch pack had the correct clearance (new clutches) although B3, B1 band should have been replaced for the long term as well as Ki clutches (now all replaced).
The drum set is back in the case so this morning I hope to reassemble the unit and get it back in the car.
Actually, I'm really enjoying this job as it is bringing back memories from the'70s and 80s when this was pretty common work for me.

mpm


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/10/2010 14:14:37
Message:

Mike,

Sorry for the late reply, I was out of the country.

The reaction valves are mainly for shifting back, when the K clutch releases and the brake band engages. The reaction valves "senses" when the drum stops turning. I will have a nice lecture on that at the next Lode Fest.
I feel your pain, regarding the one way clutch, although it is stated clearly in the manual on how to put this thing in.

I have worked on this transmission in the last weeks, here is some progress.


Preparing the case. I still have to remove the seal for the control shaft. I use a "blind hole" bearing puller, as shown here.





With a slide hammer you remove the seal easily.





Then we need to remove the two seals that seal the shafts of the B1 and B2 pistons. I only could find a tool used to remove rubber bearings out of axles. You can pull these seals with the washer that is behind it. Here the washer end. Be sure you use an extra washer as shown, otherwise you will bend the original washer.





Here the other side. Kind of ridiculous, but it works. All the black cylinders are just fillers...
The angle plates are actually vise protectors, they have a protective strip on the bottom, so we don't mark the aluminum housing.





Now the seals are removed. I also missed a plug (the hex bolt on the right) that needed plated.





Here the empty case from all sides.


















Now we move the new seals back in, first the washers:





And then the seal.





Next is the control handle for selecting gears. Bu sure you mount the ball end as shown, there are two plates with oval holes that the shaft goes through. Easy to miss when in the case. You should see this much thread sticking out of the nut.





Measure the clearance between the ratchet part and the pin, I think it should be 0.3 mm.





Here the complete setup. The bottom part will be used later for the locking pawl, position 'P'.





The reaction valves with tubes.





Here is how they slide in the housing. Be sure the holes line up. Also here a good view of the nut on the selector handle, plus you can see the locking clip on the ball joint.
I have not pushed the valve tubes in yet, since the plate I had made to do so did not line up. We can do this later.





Next is the brake band B3 piston, for the reverse brake band. Here all the parts that make up the piston. Top left 16 bell washers, that are stacked up and act like a spring. The rubber seals are lip seals.





Here is the way to put the lip seal on the piston, lip pointed up.









Same for the inner piston...










Building up the piston shaft. First a thrust washer:





Then the 16 bell washers. Here you can see how these act like a spring.





Actually after the thrust washer the inner piston gets mounted:





And then the bell washer spring.





Stick the inner piston in the outer one:





And mount the clip.





Then on the other side the cone shaped spring, with spring retainer:





And clip. This is the complete B3 piston assembly.





Now we get our transmission fasteners box out. Special here is the almost all fasteners in the transmission are 7mm, which is not a usual size. These are all cleaned and plated.





Piston B3 cover with gasket.





Now the piston assembly is moved into the housing, with some tranny grease. You don't need a special tool, just use your fingers to get the lip seal into the housing.





And the cover mounted, bolts torqued to 30Nm (I think, don't have the manual here).






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/10/2010 14:59:37
Message:

And we move on with the transmission.

We are going to assemble the main part of the transmission, and we start with brake band B2. I did not get these bands relined, these are in decent shape. I did check the metal for cracks. Here band B2.





And here the top of B2. You can see here that B2 is a double band, there are actually two loops. The other bands are single loops.





In the rear of the housing there are two studs, which prevent the band from moving side ways. You have to get B2 in before the gear train.





Here is B2 into the housing. Notice the function of the studs.





Now we move the gear train (assembled a few weeks ago) into the housing. Not easy, since it is heavy. Be sure that it does not come apart at the bearing plate. You can stick your hand through the bottom of the case in order to pick up the output shaft. The other hand lifts the input shaft.





While moving the gear train in...





Here you can see the train going in, B2 in place.





And here the gear train roughly in place. The bearing plate is not mounted yet.





The rear of the transmission case.





And the front...





Here you can see the bolts that mount the bearing plate to the case. Use a long 3/8 extension.





This is brake band B1. It is a single loop. It is different from B3, B1 as shown here has square grip areas, where the piston pin moves into.





B2 moved into the transmission.





These two special bolts hold both B2 and B3 into place.





Mounted into the case. Be sure not to forget an aluminum crush washer.





Here the other end of the bolts. The big one holds B2 into position, the small one B3.





The B3 band into the transmission.





Before we move in B3, we have to mount the lever that pushes B3 in. Here it is, with pin and a new O-ring for the pin.





The lever mounts like this, with the end touching the B3 piston rod, and the hole will have the pin the pushes into the band. The large pin on top is the pivot point for the lever.





The pivot pin moves completely into the housing. It has M6 thread to be able to pull it back out.





Here the end of the lever and the B3 piston rod.





There are 4 pins for the brake bands, and the adjustment bolt for B3. The two large pins are for the B3 brake band.





The adjustment bolt. Be sure to stick a pin in the hole before you put the bolt in, otherwise you will not get the pin in.





A good look at B3, with both pins, the actuation lever and the adjustment bolt.







1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 02/11/2010 11:49:06
Message:

Good Morning Gentlemen.

Success -it is a great day! Trans is back in with excellent shift points and engagement. A little delay during kick down operation which should be correctable by a slight counter clockwise turn of the double-action solenoid control rod -electrical integrity/continuity has satisfactory values.

Thanks for this great(!) post. Between this post and the corresponding literature (Technical Data Passenger Cars, 1969 (Bible),and the Workshop Manual Passenger Cars as of 1959 Supplement, Assembly, Service & Repair, Automatic Transmissions, Book 3), it has made for an accurate diagnosis and repair. I had extreme confidence when fitting this transmission.

Thanks again, mpm

#5081





Reply author: aplekker
Replied on: 02/15/2010 12:51:25
Message:

Great, Mike!

I still have a long way to go to get to Mike's situtation. But how does a mouse eat an elephant? Right, one bite at the time. So here another bite of my transmission project.

We are going to mount the pistons for the B1 and B2 brake bands. Here are all the parts needed for the piston housing, which also contains the vacuum logic, and the kickdown/idle logic.





The lever mounted that is turned by the double acting solenoid.





Here are the parts for the B2 second piston. Tha main piston can be pushed by this smaller piston, and uses the smaller spring.





We mount a new lip seal on the piston, lip towards the back. Also, a new O-ring is moounted on the cylinder, visible on top.





Now we push the piston into the cylinder bore. Use a small screw driver to push the lip seal into the groove. Of course there was a special tool for that, but it can be done easily without. Also, use some tranny grease.





On top of the piston we push the next part, the cylinder with the O-ring on the outside. A retaining clip goes into a groove and holds this part in place.





Now we push the pressure plate into the cylinder. This plate pushes against the small spring.





Next we take the new main seals, and chech the opening size. You can see the opening at 09:00 o'clock. Max size is 0.1mm, mine are around 0.07mm.





There are two pins for the connection between the bands and the reaction valves. These pins come in different lengths, and so you can set the band clearance. Long pin is for B1, and the short one for B2.





B2 pin into place.





The other side of B2 has some kind of fork, since it is a double loop band. The rod on piston B2 sticks into the other end of the fork. BTW, if you ever take the pistons out of a transmission, this fork will fall down...





Piston B2 almost into it's cylinder. Push the seal by hand, it takes some trying. Originally required another special MB tool.





And now the piston is in place.





The longer pin goes in between brake band B1 and its reaction valve.





Here both pistons mounted.





Now we put the springs into the housing. Large wire diameter large sping into B1, small wire diameter large spring into B2. The smaller spring goes into the second piston of B2.





Another view of the spring setup.





Another special MB tool is needed for compressing the springs before you mount the housing. Of course I don't have that tool, so we use a trick. We take the longest M7 bolts out of our parts box (these are also used in the transmission), and put them in the positions shown. Before we do that, we put a nut and a washer the whole way up these bolts. Luckely the thread also goes the whole length of the bolt.





Now mount the housing, start the long bolts into the case. The springs are not compressed yet.





Here a detail of the nuts. I just use the nuts on two bolts, on both ends of the housing. What you do now is turn the nuts clockwise, one turn at the time for each nut. This way you slowly compress the springs into the case. It takes a while, but it works.





Now we are almost done:





Another detail:





Then we put all the other normal length bolts in, fasten these and replace the long bolts with the normal ones.





The setup for the grooved roller bearing in the back of the case. Here you also set the clearance for the rear part of the gear train. The spring ring (top left) is put in the bearing groove, together with the thrust washer (top right). Then you measure the distance between the washer and the end of the bearing. There is a set value for this distance, and you make up the difference with the shims (far right). Mine exactly matched the original setup. See the manual for the procedure.





Now we mount the bearing on the shaft. First you knock the inner bearing race on the shaft, like you see here. I don't want to drive the bearing into the case by knocking on the inner race, so I need an adapter bushing for the outer case. Will have that made this week...






1965 600 SWB #248
1968 6.3 #0347
1971 6.3 #5745 Euro
1979 6.9 #6857 Euro
1979 450SLC 5.0 EURO
1981 300SD
1989 560SEL
2003 CL600 Brabus T12 570HP


Reply author: Royboy
Replied on: 10/06/2013 15:04:05
Message:

Complements awesome thread! Great detail what more can one say.
Roy


Reply author: cyrus
Replied on: 12/04/2014 13:18:28
Message:

Hi all,
I am a newbie from India and have been reading this fantastically detailed thread on the MB 4 speed Transmission in the hope that it will shed some light on the problem(s) I am having with the Transmission of a 1962 220 SEb C.
The transmission will only shift into 3rd gear at 60 Kmph and about 4500 RPM instead of the required shift at 2800 RPM. Once 3rd is engaged, it goes into 4th smoothly and even with the revs drop to 3000 RPM it holds in 4th gear.
Also, no matter what setting I do to the rod between the Modulator and the 3 way solenoid, the shift from 1st to 2nd is pretty rough.
On going through the manual and performing various tests, I have found that the Pressure at the Modulator test point without vacuum, is very high in the minimum range at 3.1 kg/cm2 instead of the required 1 Kg/cm2 and at Medium it is 3.8 instead of the required 2.9. The high kickdown pressure is 4.9 instead of 4.8 which I suppose would be acceptable.
I am a little cofused on how to check the stepped pressure.There is no pressure at idle and the gear in park or 4. When the engine is at 2000RPM in 4 it reads 2.5kg/cm2. Is that ok?
The secondary pump reads a pressure of 2 kg @1000RPM, 7.5kg @2000RPM but drops to 6kg @3000 RPM. Is that ok?
There is no slippage in any gear and reverse is no problem.
The car had been unused for many years and there waer signs of oil leakages around the transmission so I opened the transmission primarily to change the oil seals and check the bearings.
I did not touch the valve body as I was unable to get a packing for it here.
I opened the governor at the rear and cleaned it up, I even tried increasing/decreasing pressure on the 2 regulatory valves but it made no difference. Driving the car with the solenoid connected or not again makes no difference. The vacuum to the modulator is 14 at idle, but does not decrease when the engine is revved. Driving the car with or without the vacuum connected again makes no difference.
I hope you guys can put me on the right track to solving this problem. If there are any other test results required, let me know. I really am looking forward to what you all have to say.
Thanks,
Cyrus.


Reply author: cyrus
Replied on: 12/11/2014 03:18:38
Message:

Hello again,
Is this an old locked out topic that everyone has unsubscribed from?
Please advice. I could really do with some advice from the group regarding my earlier post, specially from 'Aplekker' and gang who have gone through the transmission in such great detail.
Thanks,
Cyrus


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 12/11/2014 18:07:03
Message:

The topic certainly is not locked. The problem is probably that very few here know the answers to your questions, despite knowing a lot on other topics.
Art


Reply author: cyrus
Replied on: 12/16/2014 08:06:51
Message:

Hello,
I have managed to resolve the issue and have the car now changing into all gears very smoothly and at the right RPM for the various gears.
The problem was in the modulator. While one end of the activating rod was connected via the adjusting rod to the 3 way solenoid, the other end was not engaging the piston but only the outer sleeve of the piston in the center of the modulator. Fitting it correctly is quite a tricky job. I should have tested this before fitting the outer cover by moving the lever manually and seeing that the piston was moving along with it but was was unaware that there was a chance that the locating pin was not engaging the piston.
Thanks due to the detailed pictures and descriptions on this thread, specially Aplekker, that let me study the components in detail, figure out their working and find the fault.
Cyrus.


Reply author: bigrich406
Replied on: 10/19/2015 19:05:28
Message:

I have a drip coming from the outer cover of my vacuum modulator. There is no gasket for this on the fiche. I am assuming no fluid is supposed to be in this chamber and the inner oil seal is leaking and needs to be replaced.

Can this be done with the transmission in the car?

1969 300SEL 6.3
1971 300SEL 6.3
1987 Porsche 930
1997 Porsche 993TT
2002 Porsche GT2
2008 Porsche GT2


Reply author: mpmorris
Replied on: 10/20/2015 10:13:16
Message:

Rich --yes it can be done with transmission in place and you will not disturb any adjustments. There are three o-ring seals to replace to seal the shaft and the hard plastic intermediate plate: 2 for both sides of the plate to aluminum and one inside the plate for the shaft)


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 08/29/2017 18:51:19
Message:

I am trying to restore those pages, because the essential pictures are blocked by photobucket.

I try to upload the Original pictures from Albert , so this valuable thread regains its value for all.

So be not surprised that most postings will be " edited " by me

I hope this all will have succes ..... ???


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 08/29/2017 20:01:53
Message:

Thank you Paul, so do I hope you are successful.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/01/2017 11:18:08
Message:


I could replace all the pictures from Albert, except in his openingspost, which only the webmaster or the original poster i.c Albert can do ....


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