Print Page | Close Window

Tell me I haven't been hasty.

Printed from: M-100 Message Board
Topic URL: http://www.m-100.co/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3746
Printed on: 08/19/2017

Topic:


Topic author: needamerc
Subject: Tell me I haven't been hasty.
Posted on: 06/15/2008 16:53:53
Message:

To fine tune my recent addition I picked up some parts on Ebay.
Beautiful hand made (veneered) steering wheel. New! Big dollars.
Nice original foglamps, but are they right?
Re-cond Becker with Ipod connection.
Want to get (or already have) correct alloys, but should they be 14" or 15"??
Thanks. Eddie.
http://picasaweb.google.com/gilmartin.eddie/MyNewJersey6302

'71 300SEL 6.3 #3562
'66 W100 600 SWB #0505
'05 W463 G55K AMG
'91 W126 500SEL
'93 W463 300GDL
'84 W460 280GES
'83 W460 300GDL
'69 U421 UNIMOG
'66 W111 220SEb Coupe
'59 W180 220S Coupe
'58 W121 190
'58 W180 220S
Have previously owned '99 SL600, '99 ML320, '79 450SLC, '79 450SEL 6.9 x 2, '68 600, '91 190E 1.8, '90 190E 2.0, '85 190, '90 500SL, '92 500SEL, '97 E300Turbodiesel, '91 300D, '72 280S, '82 300D, '81 300SD, '85 230E, '56 220a and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

Replies:


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 06/15/2008 18:04:56
Message:

14" but be prepared to use the only tires available. VR series are no longer made in 14" size( unless you install michelins $$) .15" alloys are the holey grail of Mercedes rims. Not often they come on the market but occasionally they turn up on German ebayThe driving/fog lights are similar to mine( I suspect there several types used by Mercedes,I have seen so many variations over the years)




...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/15/2008 20:18:48
Message:

Are you planning to convert the front end lighting to a Euro style setup? If so, you'll need the orange segment turn signals, and high beam (lower) lamps with the city (parking) light included. You should also know that the mounting hole position for the Euro driving/fog lights and the USA style orange turn/parking lights are not the same.



15 inch bundt style alloys were not original on a 6.3, but are a good way to go if you want high performance tires. The original factory (Fuchs) versions are incredibly rare, but there is a somewhat better supply of aftermarket copies. The much more common 14x6.5 inch bundts were available on 6.3s, but only from 1971.


Reply author: mthomas
Replied on: 06/15/2008 22:38:32
Message:

A single word comes to mind when I saw your car....Stunning!
Mike


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/16/2008 16:53:57
Message:

Once again I forgot to subscribe to my own topic. Really appreciate the comments guys. It is an exceptional car. I will only see it for the first time on July 17th... My preference is for 15" wheels. I see "barock" and "by ronal" appearing on Ebay UK and DE occasionally. Is that what i want?
I thought those foglight mountings looked unusual on the NJ car. Is this a simple fix?
Turn-signals etc I have no clue about.
Regards. Eddie


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/16/2008 17:13:45
Message:

So that's why they're orange. Turn signals! So a little bit of re-wiring involved? I don't think I legally need to change anything.
Eddie.
ps Ron. Thanks for advice on tyres.


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/16/2008 21:51:39
Message:

What we call "bundt wheels" the Germans call "Barock felgen" Ronal is just one of several aftermarket manufacturers. Always be suspicious of any claims that wheels are 15 inch, people will often just measure across the face of the wheel and get an incorrect figure.

Here's a set in German Ebay. The seller says he will ship only to Germany however.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Mercedes-Barock-Alufelgen-7Jx15-ET23-TOP_W0QQitemZ150259923345

The front end of your car looks like a standard USA setup, where the large flat orange lamps are both the turn signals and the parking (side) lights. On a Euro car the turn signals were in a small triangular segment in the headlight door, while the parking lights (or so called 'city lights') were a small 3 Watt bulb fitted inside the high beam lamp. Unfortunately the Euro style fog lights mount about an inch lower on the front of the fender than the USA turn/park lights, so fitting them involves removing the fenders, filling, painting, and cutting a new hole. If you fit Euro fog lights into the USA lamp holes it just looks wrong.

Personally, I prefer the cleaner look of having nothing between the headlights and the grill, feeling that it gives the car a purer look that emphasizes the vertical lights. This is how I'm restoring my 6.3.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/17/2008 12:10:43
Message:

A friend just putted clear lenses on those lamps, suggesting it were smoglights. I thought he bought them by Bosh

On the picture you can see howe it looks:




But the lights you bought are okee. As M Trei said, you have to change a lot to fit them.

But if you will impress buy BLUE lenses



Reply author: CraigS
Replied on: 06/17/2008 13:34:10
Message:

I don't know if it will help your decision, but these are the driving lights on my Australian 6.3, as the car was when I bought it. The left one is a Hella and the right one is a Bosch.



Now 2054.70 cu ins. of M100 power !


Reply author: CraigS
Replied on: 06/17/2008 13:36:16
Message:

I don't know if it will help your decision, but these are the driving lights on my Australian 6.3, as the car was when I bought it. The left one is a Hella and the right one is a Bosch.



Now 2054.70 cu ins. of M100 power !


Reply author: CraigS
Replied on: 06/17/2008 13:38:11
Message:

I don't know if it will help your decision, but these are the driving lights on my Australian 6.3, as the car was when I bought it. The left one is a Hella and the right one is a Bosch.



Now 2054.70 cu ins. of M100 power !


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 06/17/2008 18:18:26
Message:

Yes,all right ,we get the picture(S)

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)


Reply author: CraigS
Replied on: 06/18/2008 00:12:49
Message:

Bloody forum time out error !!!

Now 2054.70 cu ins. of M100 power !


Reply author: james lawson
Replied on: 06/18/2008 00:55:29
Message:

For what it is worth, I bought a set of new 15 inch wheels from the classic center awhile back. You might call Tom and check if he has more.

jim


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 05:44:03
Message:

Here are the Classic Centre wheels:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/4-Mercedes-Benz-Classic-BUNDT-Alloy-Wheels-15-X-7_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ43955QQihZ018QQitemZ280229259759QQtcZphoto
I'm going to try to get those German ones. Have a set of 14's but prefer the 15's.
Looks like I've stirred a hornets nest with this lights issue. Clear lenses would be my preference.
Now to change the subject, I need Sherlock Benz. I bought this 220SE Cabrio on Ebay yesterday for very small money. Couldn't resist it even though it's a "hybrid"
http://picasaweb.google.com/gilmartin.eddie/London220SECabrio
Seller described it as having a non-original 280S engine, non-original trim etc.
Photos are bad quality but I think I see a 250SE badge on the boot/trunk and 280S on the dash (where I'll be putting a nice Ebay Becker).
Then he says the VIN starts 112...
Is there any chance I've bought a 300SE converted to carbs???
Collecting in London next week. Can't wait.
Regards. Eddie.


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 05:50:26
Message:

I'm going to try to get those German ones. Have a set of 14's but prefer the 15's.
Looks like I've stirred a hornets nest with this lights issue. Clear lenses would be my preference.
Now to change the subject, I need Sherlock Benz. I bought this 220SE Cabrio on Ebay yesterday for very small money. Couldn't resist it even though it's a "hybrid"
http://picasaweb.google.com/gilmartin.eddie/London220SECabrio
Seller described it as having a non-original 280S engine, non-original trim etc.
Photos are bad quality but I think I see a 250SE badge on the boot/trunk and 280S on the dash (where I'll be putting a nice Ebay Becker).
Then he says the VIN starts 112...
Is there any chance I've bought a 300SE converted to carbs???
Collecting in London next week. Can't wait.
Regards. Eddie.


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 06:04:43
Message:

"Bloody forum time out error"


Reply author: bwostosh
Replied on: 06/18/2008 10:02:54
Message:

needamerc,
needacorrect motor?
Incorrect motor on a Cabriolet is a crime against a classic..

I have (3) M127's complete and could ship from San Diego, these are 1964 with smaller intake manifold and sub-pan, or one-piece pans available. if you cannot find local source.

Help me eliminate garage clutter.

Brian O.


Reply author: bwostosh
Replied on: 06/18/2008 10:10:15
Message:

needamerc,
needacorrect motor?
Incorrect motor on a Cabriolet is a crime against a classic..

I have (3) M127's complete and could ship from San Diego, these are 1964 with smaller intake manifold and sub-pan, or one-piece pans available. if you cannot find local source.

Help me eliminate garage clutter.

Brian O.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 06/18/2008 10:16:59
Message:

Originality surely wasn't a concern for this fella!

It may be a 112. The radiator sure looks like a 112 part. It has fintail sedan tail-lights and a 108/109 sedan bumper. Really makes you wonder what else you may find.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: Bill Kaidbey
Replied on: 06/18/2008 11:02:39
Message:

Hello,

I think that the best way to buy 15 inch wheels is through German ebay, I bought a set for my car, and it cost me just under $700.00 including shipping. Just make sure the seller is willing to ship to the US.

Here is a set on German ebay now.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Mercedes-Barock-Alufelgen-7Jx15-ET23-TOP_W0QQitemZ150259923345QQihZ005QQcategoryZ76048QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Bill


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/18/2008 11:17:08
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Johnson

It may be a 112. The radiator sure looks like a 112 part. It has fintail sedan tail-lights and a 108/109 sedan bumper. Really makes you wonder what else you may find.



No sign of any air suspension bits however.

Pretty funny how they jammed those tail lights in!


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 06/18/2008 11:22:34
Message:

If we can assume that the rear valance is original, the single exhaust would indicate that it is a 220SE or 300SE conv. The air door on the firewall supports this. I think you can safely say that it is NOT a 250SE or a 280SE of any variant.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: bwostosh
Replied on: 06/18/2008 11:52:40
Message:

Forget any originality then, just look good cruising in it.


Brian O.


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 12:06:13
Message:

Eddie,

Good for you! I can't wait either. Anything is possible with this cabrio, it has been very heavily modified. It's possible that it wasn't even originally a cabrio, I've seen a handful of conversions. About a few years ago, I saw a W112 cabrion conversion fetch over US $20K on ebay. Did you notice that the taillights are very incorrect, coming from a W111/W112 sedan? The car does have the chrome strip at the belt line that a W112 would have, but since this car is so heavily modified, that doesn't mean much...lots of people do that to W111s. It's also missing the wheel arch trim that a W112 would have. If it's a W112 cabrio, the VIN should be 112.023-10-00XXXX. Best of luck on that!

The fact that it has a carb'd motor would seem to support the conversion theory because the M189 motor commonly lives a shorter life than other Benz motors of the era, but I just saw a 220SE coupe on ebay the other day that also had a carb'd 280S motor in it.

Whatever the case, now that you have bought it, the only reasonable thing to do is convert to the proper M100 drivetrain! I do have an M189 that was from a manual car available, but I hope that you put in an M100 drivetrain. You definitely have my attention on this project!

Best of luck,

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 12:28:23
Message:

Here's the text of seller answering questions from other bidders. See partial VIN!
Quote:
Fragen & Antworten Beantwortet am
Frage: hi a couple of questions about your car was this ever coupe? and can i have the chassis no you could leave out the last 3 numbers and what condition is the hood as this is a very expensive job thank you tom 13.06.08
Antwort: Hi Tom I believe the car to be an original convertible. The VIN number (last 3 didgits left out as suggested) is A1120232000. The hood is in very good condition having been replaced by the last owner. The interior headlining is in fair condition and I guess it is the original rather than a replacement. Regards
Frage: Hello.Please let me know how good the restoration was.Bare metal repaint or blow over?Are panels straight or rippled?Any rust or bubbles anywhere?What is colour?Is it original colour?Any history?Who did the work?I've owned a 220 cabriolet before and want another one.Kind regards John Carver 12.06.08
Antwort: Hi John. Sorry can not be very helpful. I bought the car in Sept 03 from the son of the previous owner who passed away a few years befor I bought it. He told me that his dad bought it from the first owner John Ryan the horse trainer in 1970. Apparently he refurbished it in 1983 but then in 1984 it was vandalised whilst in store in a garage. It was subsequently restored. I believe it had a colour change and is now a light blue metallic. Paint finish is good although a few imperfections which were probably there from time of repaint. I believe the owner did a lot of the work himself including the engine change ( do not know why this was done), and the adding of power steering. Panels seem straight to me. The body looks lovely and the metal is very sound throughout incluidng floor pan etc. My own mechanic spoke highly re the quality of all the work I strongly recommend viewing before bid then you can decide yourself, at the reserve price I feel it represents a bargain which is only low because of the non standard engine & other non standard trim items. I failed to say in detials that rev counter is not connected. My mechanic tells me it is mechanical whilst the engine needs an electric one (easily obtainable second hand apparently). Have not bothered myself as rev counter not needed with the engine anyway. Hope this is of use Regards
Frage an den Verkäufer
Unquote
Well, what do you think?


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 13:00:30
Message:

The 112.023 is correct for the beginning of the VIN. Oh, I just remembered it's rhd, so the next number would be a 2, and then a 0 for manual transmission....so you're in good shape! If that really is the VIN, you have yourself a 300SE Cabrio - Congrats!

I don't see the air suspension components under the hood, but the 280S motor would not easily support an air compressor, so it would have been easier for the mechanic who did the convert to swap the suspension to coil spring. Saw this on a 112 coupe out in California...it's not uncommon.

The best way to discover the VIN is to look at the right front frame rail, just in front of the wheel, inside the engine bay. On top of the frame rail will be the stamped-on VIN. Frame rails can be swapped out, just recently saw a 6.3 in California with new frame rails, but this is very uncommon. Still, double check this.

Wow, Eddie, I'd bet you have a real 112 Cabrio! So, what are you going to do about the drivetrain? I think I'd drive it as for the rest of the summer, it's a beautiful car.

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 13:02:49
Message:

The 112.023 is correct for the beginning of the VIN. Oh, I just remembered it's rhd, so the next number would be a 2, and then a 0 for manual transmission....so you're in good shape! If that really is the VIN, you have yourself a 300SE Cabrio - Congrats!

I don't see the air suspension components under the hood, but the 280S motor would not easily support an air compressor, so it would have been easier for the mechanic who did the convert to swap the suspension to coil spring. Saw this on a 112 coupe out in California...it's not uncommon.

The best way to discover the VIN is to look at the right front frame rail, just in front of the wheel, inside the engine bay. On top of the frame rail will be the stamped-on VIN. Frame rails can be swapped out, just recently saw a 6.3 in California with new frame rails, but this is very uncommon. Still, double check this.

Wow, Eddie, I'd bet you have a real 112 Cabrio! So, what are you going to do about the drivetrain? I think I'd drive it as for the rest of the summer, it's a beautiful car.

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 13:07:48
Message:

Are you suggesting I try to put the M100 6.3 in there? I'm not Karl Middlehauve.
Think I would prefer a correct 300 (if that turns out to be what the car is)
So is it the M189 I need?
Did all 300's have the air suspension?
If there's no air, how do I explain the VIN?
By the way, thanks to all contributors so far, particularly the offers of M189's, appreciated.


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 13:17:48
Message:

If it's an W112, it had an M189 and air suspension. There were about 700 cabrios, and very few 112s of any body style had a manual transmission. This car probably had the early version of the M189, there were two. The M189 for a manual trans was different than the M189 for the auto trans. So, again, it will be even harder to find the correct motor. I have a spare M189 with a manual trans, actually 2 of them, but they are both the later motor.

Of course, Chris is the expert on this and I'm sure he'll chime in to solidify the details.

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/18/2008 13:53:35
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by needamerc



I would check the VIN on the frame rail before making any assumptions. I have seen cars that have 'aquired' a new identity at some point.

So is it the M189 I need?
Yes

Did all 300's have the air suspension?
Yes

If there's no air, how do I explain the VIN?
Someone probably removed the air suspension when they did the motor swap.

Here's one for sale with lots of pics to give you an idea of basically how it should look. This car has later halogen style headlights and incorrect hubcaps and wheels however. The little round side marker was used only in some markets like Italy. The boot carpet is also added. Oh, and it's a chop top...

http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/10743/index.html?no_cache=1



Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 14:49:11
Message:

Nice looking car. This car points out further, though, how misleading information can be. There is no way this is a '62. That is the later M189 engine etc. in it. They don't post the VIN, which would clear things up quickly. There are probably more clues to what year it is in the interior, etc., but I didn't look. I'm pretty sure that version 2 of the M189 came out in Jan, 1964, but don't hold me to it.

Eddie, you have visited Chris Johnson's topnotch website: 300se.org?
Lots of fun stuff to read. He does a great job of cataloguing changes, etc.

Version 2 of the M189 has more hp (170 instead of 160), but a little less torque. I haven't driven the two back to back, and I doubt it is easy to notice much difference. The intake is the most obvious giveaway, but there are other differences. From what I know, either is a great motor.

To add my two cents, I wouldn't spend 5 cents to restore this to original condition unless you do it completely accurately. It's value is already compromised by the fact that it does not have the original motor. That is a major deviation from original. If you were to put it all back to stock, and at least had the correct motor, it would improve the value significantly. I believe that this transformation would actually pay for itself in value, but I don't know what you paid for the car.

As for transplanting an M100 drivetrain, you don't have to be KHM. The air suspension for this car and the 6.3 are different, but the 6.3 suspension bolts in without modification. The engine fits onto the crossmember and into the without issue as well. The only major modification is refitting the trans tunnel from the 6.3 into the 112, as the bellhousing is too big to fit otherwise. You don't have to completely dissassemble the car and start over. Steering gear needs adjustment too, but rearend etc. bolts right in. Just a thought...

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/18/2008 15:31:09
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by benz_head



As for transplanting an M100 drivetrain, you don't have to be KHM. The air suspension for this car and the 6.3 are different, but the 6.3 suspension bolts in without modification. The engine fits onto the crossmember and into the without issue as well. The only major modification is refitting the trans tunnel from the 6.3 into the 112, as the bellhousing is too big to fit otherwise. You don't have to completely dissassemble the car and start over. Steering gear needs adjustment too, but rearend etc. bolts right in. Just a thought...



The problem I see is that being a cabriolet, the torque of an M-100 would probably twist this car like a pretzel. Karl's AMG built M-100 W112 cab has extra bracing, and I still think Karl has said it gets very twitchy if you push it.


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 16:08:46
Message:

Karl's has an AMG motor and that manual tranny, so it is putting out a lot more than a standard 6.3, but I can easily imagine that to be true...even the 109 chassis has problems handling the 6.3's torque. While the 112 chassis is stronger than the 109, the lack of a top has to offset that significantly.

Still, for my two cents...since you have to modify it anyway, do it up!

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 17:32:18
Message:

I hear you. First I have to see what I got. Engines are available, but obviously not the original one. (I wonder what's in the 4 crates of spares that come with the car?). If I do anything with the car a 300SE restoration would be my first choice. Incorrect trim I can handle. A 6.3 conversion would be a terrifying undertaking for me, but who knows... I'm clearly mad to begin with.

'71 300SEL 6.3 #3562
'66 W100 600 SWB #0505
'05 W463 G55K AMG
'91 W126 500SEL
'93 W463 300GDL
'84 W460 280GES
'83 W460 300GDL
'69 U421 UNIMOG
'66 W111 220SEb Coupe
'59 W180 220S Coupe
'58 W121 190
'58 W180 220S
Have previously owned '99 SL600, '99 ML320, '79 450SLC, '79 450SEL 6.9 x 2, '68 600, '91 190E 1.8, '90 190E 2.0, '85 190, '90 500SL, '92 500SEL, '97 E300Turbodiesel, '91 300D, '72 280S, '82 300D, '81 300SD, '85 230E, '56 220a and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/18/2008 17:54:12
Message:

Clearly...but you're my kind of mad!

4 crates? All of your prayers regarding this little rascal may be answered!

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/18/2008 18:14:57
Message:

As the saying goes, "if you're in a hole, stop digging".
Unfortunately I think I'm destined to keep digging until I hit the Mother Lode.


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 06/19/2008 03:58:45
Message:

I spent sunday looking at Merc W111 convertible, a 1965 220SE with a 220 S engine and the early type t50 booster and single stage brake cylinder ( on discs!!).If that wasn't strange enough,it was a sedan cut into a convertible !. A very nicely done car though,the doors have been lengthened and a BMW 3 series top fitted. It has even got W111023 wind up rear windows and pillerless glass in front.
Then there was this ...
a 300 coupe cut into a convert,it might have looked better if the suspension had been adjusted down wards a touch.


...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/20/2008 13:53:22
Message:

I got a scan of the UK title document today.
"VIN A1120232000022"
From Chris Johnson's table at 300SE.org, I believe this is missing one digit, all have 14 digits. It appears to indicate 112 300SE 023 Convertible 2 RHD 0 Manual
And Number 22 of all 300SE's?? Remember one digit missing.
"Engine No. 12798420005239"
I don't know what that tells me but I'm sure some of you do.

If a 6.3 will fit, will a 6.9? I have a '79 donor car with good spare engine but no tranny. Alternatively I have a '66 220SE Coupe donor that could/should be pimped.

Chris Johnson's analysis of the 300SE engine is scary in terms of rebuild costs etc. Don't know if I'm ready to go down that road.


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/20/2008 15:35:04
Message:

Yes, rebuilding an M189 is brutal. It sure is a fine motor, though. Hopefully, the original is in one of the boxes and you can store it, preserving the value of the car, and put a different motor in it for driving.

The M127.984 ? Is that the id # of the motor that's currently in it, or originally in it? The M127 series was in 220SEs for sure, but the 984 extension may denote others. With the current motor in it, and the lid closed...it may drive just great.

One digit is missing off of that VIN, but something else is up too. There weren't any of these with less than 4 non-zero digits at the end: ex. 112-023-20-005592. So, the last four on the paperwork are inaccurate. As Mike said, who knows....we've all seen lots of different things. The frame rail should tell all, provided it's original.

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/20/2008 16:48:05
Message:

If I decided to cannibalize the 220SEb Coupe for parts what can I use? Bumpers/fenders? Lights?
I must get out the file on that car and check the numbers and details. Drove it into a shed 10 years ago...and then had kids, loads of them.
The idea of getting a 300SE engine and storing it is good.
I'll have the car home Wednesday, Sherlock Benz on Thursday.
On the topic of VINs and engine numbers, when I imported an '05 Gwagen last year we could not find the engine number anywhere, including on the German documents. Customs just made one up using the last four digits of the VIN! The box had to be filled.


Reply author: CraigS
Replied on: 06/21/2008 01:50:27
Message:

127.984 is a 220 SEb engine.

Now 2054.70 cu ins. of M100 power !


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 06/21/2008 01:55:50
Message:

Gael in France bought a 220SEc with a 6.9. It was a dog to drive because rather than sit it like a 6.3 over to one side,it had been placed too far forward. He has since dropped in a 560 engine. Similar HP but a lot less torque and a lot lighter.
A 6.9 would be my choice.


...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)


Reply author: just_testing
Replied on: 06/24/2008 11:51:33
Message:

By the way, lots and lots of stuff from that 220SE coupe could be moved over to the cabrio if you need to. I have to throw in my two cents here, though, and say that it would be an awful thing to junk a good 220SE coupe - I'm assuming it's a good car.

Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 06/24/2008 18:25:32
Message:

I'll have it if it's in the way...

...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)


Reply author: Dan Smith
Replied on: 06/24/2008 22:11:38
Message:

My two bits / two pence??? First, this 6.3 looks real nice.
The steering wheel. I drove one with such a wheel for a day. It blocked the view of the instruments. They work for drivers that are 5 foot nine or so or shorter. Some fans think it cool, that's fine, it's easy to change back to stock.
The idea about swapping out the original USA look. Don't do it, UNLESS, you can do such without any drilling, filling, or rewiring. Why??? The 6.3 has entered a classic stage. Changes on a classic alter value. In my case, I change a ton but not anything with the original look. Any real fan would be hard pressed to find my changes. Understand what I mean???
15 inch or 14s. 15s deliver performance. The 14 ? It's a joke. Sure, they work. But if you drive one with the 15s with great tires, you are spoiled. Pick the tires for your reasons.


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/25/2008 18:06:52
Message:

6.3 first.
I started the lights thing in my innocence. I didn't observe, I didn't research. Lesson learned. I'm not going to touch them. Original is original. My brother's 280S needs new ones anyway.
Steering wheel. Nardi has to go. It's lovely but it's in the wrong car. The handmade German one that's coming can go on my wall if it doesn't work, it's a work of art. Originals are on Ebay all the time, getting the colour combo requires patience.
220SE Cabrio now.
I just drove it home from London today. 300 miles plus ferry. Good car. I'll investigate and take photos tomorrow.
First thoughts. 112 AND 111 plates on bulkhead ahead of rad both look retro-fitted. You'll see them when I take photos.
I can see 280S on the block (not the head) along with more numbers.
4 on the floor manual.
No air suspension. And sitting too low at the rear I think. Friend driving behind me said rear wheels are "toe-ing out".
Very pleased with my bargain.


Reply author: allenstephens
Replied on: 06/25/2008 18:18:29
Message:

Eddie,
Did Mike's old 600 arrive yet? How about the ponton? Keep us posted. I am working on editing your videos, however it may by later in the summer before I have anything to show the group.

Cheers,


Allen Stephens
Portland, Oregon
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2113


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/25/2008 18:45:49
Message:

Allen. Great to hear from you. 600 and Ponton Coupe still in AZ.
And my shed is nearly finished. See youtube.
And a friend has offered me a '58? LHD 220S sedan in return for years of favours. Shed's full.


Reply author: allenstephens
Replied on: 06/25/2008 20:07:21
Message:

Here is a photo taken before the 600 left Portland, with a 6.3 and 6.9.


Allen Stephens
Portland, Oregon
1977 450SEL 6.9 #2113


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/26/2008 16:30:42
Message:

The "220SE Cabrio" on the ferry last night. Last car on. My friend with the van full of parts was stopped by security and missed the boat!
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/gilmartin.eddie/London220SECabrio/photo#5216286032637471090
Due to crappy weather and my own exhaustion (500 miles in a day is now hard for this early 40's man I hate to admit) I have no more photos yet.
Eddie.
ps My '66 220SE Coupe is really rotten. Not economic to restore anymore. If I don't cannibalize it, I promise to offer it on this site to who ever wants it at freight only.


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/29/2008 13:17:05
Message:

Finally some pics, taken today with a friends '58 220S Ponton.
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/gilmartin.eddie/TheBishopMeetsTheActress
Some nice shots, including my friend Denis lurking in the background. He's a retired mechanic, 69, and a bit of a Ponton, Fintail and G-wagen expert which is extremely helpful to me!
On the Sherlock Benx front, see bulkhead plates (112 and 111), stamp on head (280S), stamp on block (110 or 116?). When I zoom in on the head shot, below 280S there are more numbers beginning 130? There are no more stamps visible any where on the car from above. I will have my lift working in the next few days and get more info then.


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/29/2008 13:38:46
Message:

Allen.
You have me thinking. To complete my wish list would be something like this:
300 Adenauer
6.9 (sorry must be Euro, with leather)
450SLC 5.0 / 500SLC (tweaked by slcracing.eu if I win the Lottery)
and a Pagani Zonda (for Sunday mornings)
and a 500E (for the shopping)
And OF COURSE a 600 Landaulet for picnics, plane-spotting etc


'71 300SEL 6.3 #3562
'66 W100 600 SWB #0505
'05 W463 G55K AMG
'91 W126 500SEL
'93 W463 300GDL
'84 W460 280GES
'83 W460 300GDL
'69 U421 UNIMOG
'66 W111 220SEb Coupe
'59 W180 220S Coupe
'58 W121 190
'58 W180 220S
Have previously owned '99 SL600, '99 ML320, '79 450SLC, '79 450SEL 6.9 x 2, '68 600, '91 190E 1.8, '90 190E 2.0, '85 190, '90 500SL, '92 500SEL, '97 E300Turbodiesel, '91 300D, '72 280S, '82 300D, '81 300SD, '85 230E, '56 220a and I'm sure I'm forgetting some.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 06/30/2008 01:48:59
Message:

I'm just back from a rather long trip (and did see Gary and Drew!), but have to get on this thread!

Eddie, it would appear that this really is an early 300SE cab. The "112.0023-20-00022" is the Karosserie number, or body number, not the VIN. Assuming this tag is original (and I believe it is at this time), it implies that you have the 22nd 300SE cab. The tag with the 111 number on it is not original (from the factory) and means nothing as far as this car is concerned. What we do not know at this time is if the car is really a manually transmissioned car. Only the VIN will indicate that accurately. Body numbers frequently had a "0" in the eighth digit regardless of the actual transmission type. However, if it was indeed a manually transmissioned car built with the early style 189.985 engine, it would be something of a rarity in that the manual transmission was not even available until about June '63, and the 189.985 engine was replaced with the 189.987 engine in Jan. '64. If this is indeed the case, it would be even more unusual in that it is a RHD car. There couldn't be more than one or two 300SE cabs with this particular trifecta.

The paint code number is "334" and indicates the car was originally what I call "Bavarian" Blue. Cars with this paint color usually got a dark blue top. The following is a link to a photo of my '65 300SE convertible, also in 334 blue with the dark blue top.

http://www.300se.org/112023-12-008227/Photo_Frame_008227_120601_1.htm

Considering the extent of the modifications to this particular car, it is also reasonable to assume that the brakes have also seen substantial modifications. Assuming the car falls into the 6 months at the end of '63, the car would have already had the dual-circuit brakes, but would still have had the Dunlop calipers. These are quite likely gone, as may be the 13" brake rotors. It's not unlikely that the special W112 rear axle is gone too.

However, all parts are available. Assuming that it is confirmed that this is a real 300SE cab, you have one of about 710 cars total production! Regardless of anything else, it's a rare bird simply because it's a W112 cab! These cars are worth restoring to original condition regardless of anything else. If you need an early 985 engine for a manual transmission, we'll find one (I'm not sure I have one of these at present), I have rear axles of all types, Dunlop brake components, etc., etc. Some things will be a challenge, but I come across a lot of 300SE stuff over a period of time.

If you need any truly unique parts, let me know as soon as possible, assuming your other cars are still in Phoenix. I'm not in Phoenix, but my hangar where most things are stored is southwest of Phoenix about 40 miles, and I'm sure we could convince someone close by to make a trip. Perhaps parts could be stored in the cars when shipped over.

I need to correct a mistake (if I read it correctly). It is possible for a 300SE cab to have a VIN with only three non-zero numbers in the last six. The very first 300SE cab is VIN 112.023-12-000399. I do not know how many other 300SE cabs there may have been with VINs this low, and it may be zero. The first cab was completed in Sept. of '62, which means it lagged the other 300SE variants' VINs by many months. The last six of 000399 indicates the VIN was assigned probably in Feb. '62. I had a '62 convertible with a VIN of 002320, also completed in Sept. '62.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/30/2008 05:19:07
Message:

Chris. Your depth of knowledge is amazing.
I am still sceptical about this car. The non-original plate 11102320038327 is all over older documentation for the car.
The car was first registered in England in February 1963.
The hood is blue, the seller told me it was new in '94 after the car was heavily vandalized in storage. It is a four speed manual. Could that be the original box mated to a 280S engine? Comparing it against yours I think the rear fenders may be correct? It came with 3 bad sets of round headlights.
I am still erecting my lift DIY and have decided today to move it to a better location. So I have to wait a bit longer to get under the car. What am I looking for under there? Gearbox #, rear axle #. What can I see without dismantling the car? Where exactly should the original VIN be found?
The other cars are still in AZ. If this really is a 300SE lets do it.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 06/30/2008 11:51:12
Message:

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Anything is possible, but I think it is highly unlikely that a 300SE cab with a manual trans could have been available for registration in Feb. '63 and this would be a valid vote against it being what we hope it is.

The VIN is located on the top surface of the right front frame rail. The following are a couple of views of this.









There are other places to look on the car for significant clues as to what type of car this may be. Only the air suspension cars had the floating rear brake calipers, and this required an arm running from the bracket caliper hardware to the body of the car. The front end of the arm is attached to the body by a long bolt and four rubber buffers, and is located about even with the rear edge of the back seat. This can be seen by looking under the car immediately in front of the rear wheels. The arm and hardware will be located between the wheel and the rear suspension trailing arms. The significant detail is the deep pocket in the body sheetmetal that receives the bolt. A replacement rear axle from a non-air suspension car would not have the arm and hardware, but the pocket in the sheet metal will be there if it is a 300SE.

The transmission may be correct and original (we continue to hope it is a real 300SE), but the clutch components, flywheel and bell housing for the M189 will not fit the M130 engine that appears to be in the car. Depending on how the conversion was done, the input shaft on the trans could now be wrong. If it is determined that this is a 300SE then those parts will have to be acquired as well. It is also likely that the reinforcing pan for the trans mount has also been modified and will need to be repaired (this is a nearly impossible part to replace whether new or used).

It does appear that the rear fenders are correct, but somebody grafted in the sedan tail lights.

Let us know what success you have locating the VIN!

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/30/2008 15:37:01
Message:

Chris.
See last four pics taken this evening here:
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/gilmartin.eddie/TheBishopMeetsTheActress
I don't like what I see. Looks to me like somebody tried to stamp out the original 111 VIN. What is strange is that your VIN is on the engine side of that seam, and my hammered out one is on the wheel/street side of the seam. The mystery continues.
She certainly is an Actress.
Eddie.


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 06/30/2008 16:00:06
Message:

She isn't going to give up her secrets easily, is she?

My expertise is limited to air suspension cars, and I cannot say anything valuable regarding the alternate location of the stamped VIN. The one thing that might be valuable is that it does appear that there is 334 blue paint surrounding it (under the black) which gives us some reason to believe that the frame rail is original and therefore the location would be as well.

I cannot see the last six digits very well. Do they match the tag attached to the top of the radiator core support? From what I could see, they don't. I have to believe that the stamped VIN in the framerail is our best information, indicating that the car is a 220SE cab. It's still a cab, and still worthy of an effort to put it back in good condition. You already have a 220SE coupe donor car, so it may not even be that big a project.

Reasonable confirmation of the VIN could be accomplished by requesting a data card for each of the possible valid combination of VIN numbers that you currently have. If one of the cards says it's 334 blue with a manual transmission and RHD, you've almost certainly got the right one.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 06/30/2008 17:46:02
Message:

I may have found relations of the first owner. I hope they respond to my queries.
The colour code came from the 112 Karosserie plate!
If it's a 220SE (with a 280S engine), I will rectify some small things and let it go.
Or maybe I should keep it because it was cheap, drives well and is in good overall shape.
Who do I contact for the original build card(s)?


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 06/30/2008 18:57:42
Message:

To get the build card, you'll need the correct original chassis number, and it seems that you still don't have that.
Art


Reply author: cth350
Replied on: 06/30/2008 21:28:19
Message:

Contact Tom Hanson at the classic center. When you give him 6 chassis numbers, warn him that at most 5 are counterfit, so they don't speed too much time looking. He'll enjoy the hunt. -CTH


Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 07/09/2008 06:37:08
Message:

Made a mess of installing the lift. Had to take it out and start again. Happy not to have killed anyone. Will not commission it until after I get back from family vacation. Getting back to it early August. Meanwhile enjoying my W111/112 hybrid.
Looking closer at the stamped out VIN, I think the original was erased (whatever that was) and the W111 number inserted.
MBUK checking out VIN's for me.


M-100 Message Board : http://www.m-100.co/forum/

© 2002-2015 International M-100 Group, Inc.

Close Window