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600 Purchasing advice

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Topic:


Topic author: Tim Hartney
Subject: 600 Purchasing advice
Posted on: 12/30/2005 17:59:56
Message:

Thinking about buying a 600?
Here's some advice for first timers.


Most anyone who is at this site already knows that this is an elite car so I won't add to all the superlatives you will certainly encounter while shopping for a 600. What must be kept in mind is that there are likewise superlative repair and upkeep costs with these cars. The purchase of a 600 should be undertaken with at least a bit of knowledge about what these cars are all about. A few people have purchased these cars blindly and lived to tell the tale without major mechanical or financial catastrophe. These are the EXCEPTIONS! Many people have bought 600s that, for one reason or another, were less than ideal, sometimes in the extreme! This thread is intended to give the potential 600 buyer some basic knowledge to help insure that they make an informed buying decision, hopefully with no surprises.

Having said that, I feel a few words about "cars as investments" is in order here. While is is true that 600s are quite rare and going up in value as time passes, it must be remembered that they are also cursed with four doors and (except for the landaulets) fixed roofs. Personally, I don't buy cars "as an investment". There are some people who can do this successfully, but they aren't buying 600s to accomplish any goals for a portfolio! These cars are a passion; a labor (and expense) of love. They are best enjoyed as the magnificent driving machines that they are. Any potential appreciation in these cars' value will almost certainly be more than offset by the ownership and upkeep costs. There may be an occasional exception to this, but in short, if anyone uses the sales pitch that you should buy one of these cars because of potential appreciation in value, you're dealing with someone who is nowhere near as smart as YOU now are! This doesn't mean you should walk away just yet, but be wary! Now for a bit of background on these cars.

The 600 was produced from 1963-1981, during which time a total of 2677 600s were made. US versions were discontinued after 1972 due primarily to emission and other US regulations. The cars came in three main configurations:

The basic five passenger limousine, also known as the SWB (short wheel base).
The LWB or Pullman which was a stretched version...much rarer.
The Landaulet, which was a LWB that had a convertible top for the rear occupants...EXTREMELY rare.
There was also a subtype of the Landaulet known as the Presidential Landaulet which had a longer convertible top.

Below is a list of the yearly production figures. I list them here as a way of verifying that the VIN number approximately matches the supposed year of the car. The last four digits of the VIN numbers are the exact sequential number of production. For example,100.012-12-001345, is the 1345th 600 built. I have seen ads for cars where these things were out of whack...IE a supposed 1966 model with a VIN number ending over 1000 should raise a flag right off the bat. These numbers should be considered as a guide only; the exact model year/VIN can sometimes be a bit vague as you transition from year to year. A supposed '71 model ending in 2245, for example, wouldn't cause me any real concern if all else is in order. Here are the figures:




Production 1963-1981

Year #made Last one built that year
1963----3----------------0003
1964----107-------------0110
1965----408-------------0518
1966----323-------------0841
1967----159-------------1000
1968----223-------------1223
1969----336-------------1559
1970----236-------------1795
1971----237-------------2032
1972----210-------------2242
1973----82--------------2324
1974----52--------------2376
1975----42--------------2418
1976----47--------------2465
1977----55--------------2520
1978----40--------------2560
1979----53--------------2613
1980----44--------------2657
1981----20--------------2677

Total 2677 units, 2190 SWBs, 423 Pullmans, 59 landaulets.



Generational differences

There are essentially two "generations" of the 600: The early versions ran through the end of the 1967 model year. The later versions began in 1968 until the end of production. The primary differences between the two versions are as follows.

Early versions:
Generally more wood. The entire instrument binnacle is wood, there is a wooden console tray between the front seats, and an additional wood piece under each door armrest.
Earlier version of air conditioning in the climate control system.
Early style wheel covers.
Hydraulic door assists.
Non-US models have a more rounded glass lens on the headlights.


Later versions:
Leather covering instead of wood on instrument binnacle and elsewhere.
An improved air conditioning system in which a tall center console compartment can be utilized as an refrigerator.
Later style wheel covers (usually).
No hydraulic door assists.
Non-US models have the flatter headlight lenses.

There is no correct answer as to which version may be the "better" of the two. The later versions definitely cool the cabin better on hot days, and there is no denying that having a fridge in the armrest is really neat. However, I just love the extra wood in the early versions...they have a more inviting look to them. On the other hand it should also be noted that the hydraulic door assists on the early cars are another gadget that can be troublesome. I wouldn't consider them a deal-breaker, but one should be aware of them and make sure they work properly.

The two styles of wheel covers actually changed over in the 1969 model year, so it would be "correct" to have early ones all the way through 1969. The wheels themselves did not change, so either type of wheel cover would fit any 600.

Below, are pics of some of these differences.


Early binnacle






Leather binnacle








Early console Pic coming soon!







Late console




Inside the fridge






Early wheel cover







Late wheel cover







Extra door catch on early lock with door assist Pics coming soon!
(circled)






Now that you know some general stuff about the 600 model, here is some more detail about these beasts. Please note my "disclaimer" in the following paragraph.

I list the following areas of vehicle inspection so that the novice purchaser will hopefully be able to determine if a car warrants further consideration and the added NECESSARY expense of a thorough inspection by someone mechanically familiar with 600s. No one should buy one of these cars unless it has been inspected by a well qualified 600 technician. With this guide, you should be able to weed out cars that obviously have too many areas in need of attention. I have tried to make it as complete as possible, but to use this guide by itself, without a "real" inspection, is a risky proposition and I advise against doing so.

The Grand 600 employed what was then cutting edge technology in all aspects of its design. As a result of this, the car has features and systems that can be extremely complicated and expensive maintain or repair. Once they're properly set up and sorted out, however, they absolutely MAKE the car. Here's an overview of the main systems on these cars and some things to watch out for.

ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION

There was only one engine used, the legendary 6.3 litre V8 which was designed specifically for this car. It was available in various states of tune depending largely on where it was to be sold. The differences are most pronounced in the US market where earlier cars generally have a bit more power than later ones as compression was lowered in about late 1970.

All of these cars used a Bosch mechanical fuel injection system (MFIS) for fuel delivery. This was top shelf stuff back then, but the system can have quirks, especially when it is a few decades old. Unless the main injection pump (sitting in the "V" between the cylinder banks) has been rebuilt within the past 5-10 years, you should expect that this will be needed. One fairly reliable sign for needing such a rebuild is the presence of oil/fuel in the "V" under the pump. This may have other causes, but anticipating the worst case scenario will leave you better prepared as a buyer. There are other minor quirks with this system, but none that will likely cost as much as an injection pump rebuild.

It is very important to know the condition of the fuel system that leads TO the MFIS (injection) pump. Go to this part of the M-100 web boards for Dan Smith's excellent advice on this:
http://www.m-100.cc/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21

To sum up: fuel tanks, lines, filters, tank senders, etc. can all get badly fouled from corrosion ESPECIALLY in cars that have been SITTING for a long time. If the car hasn't been run for many months, it may be wise not to even start the car until the fuel system is cleaned up and won't be feeding contaminants to the injection pump. If the car has been sitting a year or more, I would absolutely not, under any circumstances attempt to start the car until this is done. You're just begging for big problems later on if you do. If the car has been started and driven fairly regularly, this shouldn't be a major concern at this point, especially if the car runs well.

Obviously, if the car runs rough at all, this needs to be looked at by someone who is qualified. Don't buy into the 'ol, "oh it just needs a tune up". That may well be all it needs but it may also be a sign of bigger problems. Most of these cars have a slightly "lumpy" idle. If the car runs strongly otherwise, it's probably not a big concern. Be sure to try both fully cold and hot starts. Tricky hot starting (after several minutes of sitting, engine off) isn't unusual on these cars, but it can usually be remedied without being extremely expensive, but do add it to "The List".

The transmissions on these cars are pretty tough, but a couple of things should be kept in mind. First, know that age all by itself can lead to the need for a rebuild, even with fairly low mileage. I know this because it happened to me, and I had no expectation of trans problems on a 70000 mile car. Also you should know that these trannys shift quite firmly. This is normal. A slushy shifting trans is a definite sign of trouble, especially under hard acceleration.

HYDRAULICS

Perhaps the scariest system (in terms of costs) on the car is the "comfort hydraulic system".
This system operates a large number of accessory functions, most importantly, the windows, seat adjustments both front and rear, trunk operation, sunroof, door assists (early models only) and a number of other things. Rare is the car in which this system functions perfectly. With the car running, try operating everything in sight: all windows, front and rear seats, sunroof, heating and A/C, center vent flap and last but not least, the trunk.

WARNING!


The trunk on these cars must NOT be closed by hand! Open by pulling the latch, close ONLY by pushing the latch button in. Trying to close the trunk by pushing down on the lid as in a conventional car WILL damage the lid and/or hinges!


If the above procedure does not, by itself, fully open and close the trunk, than the trunk needs repair...add it to "The List"!

While checking the various functions, keep an eye open for leaks. Red fluid on the door sills is a fairly common site on these cars. Some leaks are not too pricey to fix, while others may be a nightmare. Small amounts of seepage are often not worth the expense of repair, but any leaks should be noted and, if possible, diagnosed prior to purchase. Items that function very slowly or not at all are often in need only of an adjustment. However, in extreme cases of wear, window switches in particular may require replacement and this can cost literally THOUSANDS of dollars (yes, you read that right!). Most other switches don't wear out far enough to require replacement as they generally get less use, but it is still possible. Fortunately, most of the hydraulic components can be rebuilt, but even this can by very costly. My main point that you go in to this with your eyes open. If there is any hydraulic accessory that isn't right, having this system checked by an expert prior to purchase may save you a ton of money. Make sure each of these items in noted on "The List"!

AIR SUSPENSION

This system is operationally identical to the systems found on 109 body 300 series cars and a number of the components are actually shared with the smaller 300 models. One significant difference is that the air tank has two chambers, one of which is used for power boosting the brake system. With low pressure in the system, one will see a BRAKE warning light since that system has priority over the suspension, yet they "share" a common air source. The brake system is separated from the air suspension beyond the air tank so that a leak in the suspension won't cause loss of brake pressure.

Try to ascertain how long the car will stay up between starts. You'll be trusting the seller's answer on this, but if it's in terms of hours, obviously the system is leaking badly. If it's days, you're probably OK, but remember that these things always worsen with time, so next year you may well be down to "hours"! A decently functioning car will stay up for several days at least, ideally for weeks. If the car wasn't up when you first arrived to look at it, take note of how many minutes it takes for the light to extinguish once the engine is started. If it's much more than a few minutes, you have a pretty darned leaky system, a worn-out air compressor, or both. Another check of the condition of the compressor is to drain the tank and see how gunky the condensate is.

Look under the left front fender and you will see an oval shaped tank with two drain valves on the bottom of it. One is for the suspension system, the other for the brakes. Unless you like oily hands, wear a glove or something and push each drain valve sideways. You will probably get at least a little brownish crud out. If it is much more than a tablespoon or so, it indicates that either the tanks haven't been drained in a while OR the compressor may be getting worn (or both). After this is done, again see how long it takes to extinguish the warning light. A lot of muck and a long time to regain operating pressure definitely means it's time for a compressor. These can be rebuilt and aren't extremely costly, but...add this to "The List".

It must be remembered that air suspension systems WILL eventually become leaky, no matter how perfectly they stay up now. Here's the part that throws people: the usual culprit isn't the rubber air bags. Those can be a leak source, but far more likely is the leveling valves under the car. The reason for this is that they are always moving and the tiny synthetic seals inside these valves begin to wear and air begins to seep out. This leakage tends to worsen in colder weather; some cars stay up for weeks in the summer, but only for days in the winter. No matter what, PLAN to have to replace all three leveling valves about every 4-6 years. They are a wear-out item...it's just a fact of life.

Now for the good news: These valves are also rebuildable. A full set (rebuilt) should be in the $1500 ballpark...not all that bad as 600 parts go! Installing these is pretty straightforward, too.
Obviously, there are several other components in these systems that can be the cause of leaks. Having a look at the external condition of the bags can generally be relied on to eliminate them as possible leak sources. If they aren't all dried up and cracked or otherwise visibly damaged, they are probably OK. That leaves things like the master control valve, pressure regulator and lines. None of this stuff is cheap, but compared to the hydraulic system, these parts are not all that expensive. Labor to ferret out leaks and install components DOES add up however, so add obvious air ride problems to ...you guessed it..."The List".

CHASSIS RUBBER

While we're on the subject of suspensions, however, I must mention an area that is MANY TIMES more expensive than air ride problems: RUBBER! Perhaps the biggest marvel of engineering these cars had was their suspension. Not just the air ride part, but the total package. These cars absolutely set THE standard for many years in combining a velvet-smooth ride with extraordinarily responsive handling characteristics. The suspension components work in utter harmony to accomplish all this and a large part of this harmony comes about because of the inclusion of rubber mounts and bushings located in just the right places throughout the suspension. The problem for today's buyer of these cars is: rubber rots with age! Much of this rubber isn't visible on the 600 without major disassembly of certain suspension or driveline components. The big problem with all of this is the cost to replace all of this rubber is so far beyond what most people would find reasonable that it is rarely done, even on otherwise well kept cars.

So, how much are we talking about? I would budget about $20,000, give or take a couple to replace ALL of it. Why so much? Because it's a 600, which means each of these rubber pieces is VERY expensive (and unique to this model), and installing them involves a great deal of labor as well. In many cases, the car IS safe-to-drive with tired rubber, but it will definitely lack the sensational feel of comfort and precise handling that these cars were (and are) so noted for. Here again, the suspension must be inspected by someone who really knows 600s to verify that it is still a safe to operate and that driving it won't cause premature wear on driveline or suspension components. Many symptoms of tired rubber will show up as it would in a conventional car such as any type of clunking or looseness in the suspension. Often, a fairly loud "click" will be heard when first putting the car in reverse. The main thing you as a potential buyer must know is that suspension noises are almost never a simple or inexpensive fix. If you have a car that has recently had much of all of this work recently done, you're WAY ahead. Proper evaluation of the suspension is one of THE MOST important things to have done prior to purchasing.

BRAKES

Brakes are yet another system on the 600 that can run you into BIG trouble fast. First and foremost BE CERTAIN that ALL rubber brake hoses have been replaced within the last 4 or 5 years. If this cannot be verified, the best advice is NOT to drive the car. This may seem drastic, but the consequences can be disastrous. The problem is that brake hoses, especially on cars that aren't driven a lot, tend to swell-up internally while looking just fine on the outside. This swelling makes then act as one-way valves and prevents the brake(s) from releasing properly when the pedal is released. Because of the immense power of these cars, a dragging brake may well go unnoticed until it is literally RED HOT. There have been some cars that caught fire and burned up when this happened. If there is any doubt as to the integrity of the brake hoses, just don't drive the car. These parts are one of the few that are shared with other models and are actually quite inexpensive to replace.

The brakes are power boosted from compressed air, not vacuum as would be the case in a conventional car. This booster itself is much smaller than a vacuum style booster, but it is a very expensive unit to replace. The red BRAKE warning light is an indicator of low air pressure in the reservoir tank, which is used for air suspension AND brake boost. If this light is on there is a POSSIBILITY that brake pressure is low, but more likely it is the suspension side of things that is low and the brakes will be sufficiently boosted. It's not generally a good idea to drive the car in either circumstance...the light should be extinguished before driving the car.

The remainder of the brake system is not really any more prone to trouble than that of a conventional car, so simply being alert for chattering, grinding or pulling while braking will most likely be reliable indicators of potential problems here. Some light and occasional squeaking is basically normal, however. Once again, remember that this system is completely unique to the 600 and parts are VERY expensive if serious brake work is needed. Just a set of brake pads for this car is well over $1000! If calipers, master cylinder or power booster need rebuilding, plan on several thousand dollars for a complete brake job.

CLIMATE CONTROL

Next we come to the climate control system. There's not really much that can be checked adequately by the novice buyer here, other than to be able to tell if the A/C is blowing cold and the heat is blowing hot. Both of these functions are operated by the controls at the center of the dash and if the car is still being considered seriously, the system will be thoroughly examined by your 600 expert. Parts wise, the most expensive component in this system is the control unit. Usually, problems with this unit are evidenced by the system feeding the cabin with the wrong temperature air.

CENTRAL LOCKS

The central locking system is another system that works in the same way as that of of the models, but using 600 sized parts. These systems tend to lose vacuum with age and major components can be rebuilt. A general test of the system can be done by simply locking and unlocking the driver's door with the car off and observing that the door locks, trunk and gas filler door lock and unlock with the system through at least a few cycles. Often the system will lock the car, but loses vacuum after sitting for a while and won't unlock. Components that aren't locking or unlocking or a system that bleeds down too quickly indicate leaks...more items for "The List" .

ELECTRICAL

The last system we'll discuss here is the electrical system and again there really isn't much to talk about. 600s are equipped with two alternators, each of which can carry the normal electrical loads of the car. If all is functioning normally, you should see two red lights on in the speedo when the key is on and engine is not running. If either or both of these remain on after starting, it indicates that that alternator is not putting out any current. Each alternator has its own accessory belt. These belts are very small and more failure prone than they should be. The left one is easy to change, the right one is a real bear as it is the innermost belt. The alternators themselves are conventional Bosch units and are inexpensive to rebuild. The rest of the electrical system is generally not prone to many problems.

*********


So that about wraps up the things that are unique to the 600. The rest of your inspection would be the same as for any used car, so I won't be going over that here. Assuming the car has generally passed your inspection thus far, your next problem is to get a detailed inspection by a well qualified person and try to get firm answers on the items on "The List". It may take some time to arrange for this inspection and it will likely be somewhat expensive, but it will be money wisely spent as opposed to rolling the dice on the ultimate cost of correcting a defect.

A good rule of thumb on buying any M-100 powered car is to get the absolute NICEST one you can possibly afford. Attempting to buy one "as a restoration project" or assuming that a car needing a few repairs will be sufficiently less expensive to own almost never works with these cars. Even if you are extraordinarily talented mechanically and have a great facility in which to work, it is very unlikely that you will come out ahead in the end. Additionally, you'll be able to enjoy the car much sooner than if you have a long list of work that the car needs. Don't be in a rush and try out a number of cars.

Some time back, Karl Middlehauve wrote an article on 600 purchase and ownership which covers much of what I have written here. In that article he spells out what kinds of cars you will likely end up with at different price points. Here is how he lays it out.






A car that costs this much to purchase...................................needs this much work:

Less than $10,000................................................................a parts car.
$10,000-20,000................................................................... needs $20,000- 40,000.
$20,000-30,000....................................................................needs $10,000- 30,000...a fair driver.
$30,000-50,000..................................................... ..............needs $10,000- 20,000...a good driver.
$50,000-100,000 with very low miles..................may well need $ 50,000 (the high cost of non-use)
>$100,000.................................................................... mechanically and cosmetically flawless


The above figures are for SWB models. Pullmans will cost many thousands more to purchase, but repair and upkeep costs will likely be similar.



When you find one that seems right based on the information posted here and elsewhere, get it inspected. If it passes that test, you should be able to own the "ultimate motorcar".





Tim Hartney[/b]
When in doubt...GET ENOUGH!

Replies:


Reply author: Stu Hammel
Replied on: 12/30/2005 18:36:36
Message:

Tim's Buyer's Guide for the 600 is an excellent jumping off point for anyone seriously considering one of these magnificent cars. It is essential to try to have any 600 you are liooking at inspected by someone who knows these cars. If the car is not near a technician who is fully familiar with the 600 model, then at least try to find a club member who owns a 600 and lives close enough to give the car as complete a going over as possible. While most of us who own 600s are not expert technicians, we have been forced to learn a lot about the cars through ownership. This experience does help.

Stu


Reply author: randy crooks
Replied on: 12/30/2005 22:39:07
Message:

Tim,
Nice job,it looks like a lot of work..A couple of things that perhaps you could mention are that the front brakes have double calipers at each wheel (fore and aft).And that there were an early and late hydraulic pressure accumulator,the newer style being mounted under the front bumper (cylindrical) and the early type (sphere) located behind the kick panel.There are probably a lot of little items like these that the other guys will think of and suggest to you also.

Randy.


Reply author: Tim Hartney
Replied on: 12/31/2005 10:18:01
Message:

Thanks, Randy.

I'd forgotten about the two types of accumulators. I don't know what the cut-off date or production # was for the early type. Did it coincide with the changes in the '68 model year or did it take place at some other time?

I'll add mentioning the dual front calipers shortly.

Tim


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 12/31/2005 17:49:04
Message:

Refering to the Acummulator,Art raised a good point with a "seller" we visited once.He had been driving his 600 for some time with out the accumulator because he couldn't afford to repair the device.( one reason the car was for sale).The priniple of an accumulator is best described in terms of a "clock spring" ,Just as a clock spring becomes energised as it is wound up ,An acummulator 'acummulates' energy as a spring or gas pressurised diaphram inside it pressed against.This maintains the pressure in a air or hydrualic system at a prescribed level to prevent fluctuations,vibrations or harsh action of components in a system.
So...if you need an accumulator or you need to get yours repaired and cannot find an engineer capable of actually doing the job,a simple remedy is available in the form of the 6.9 sphere.

Art has two joined together to make an acummulator on his 600 which does the job admirally.Unless you are going for a prize at Pebble beach ,i think this is a better idea than attempting to rebuild the accumulator which requires a Huge amount of skill,somewhere within the capabilities of an aerospace enginneering workshop and related costings.

...Can we fix it?? YES WE CAN!!!http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgmp0092.jpg


Reply author: cth350
Replied on: 12/31/2005 20:18:24
Message:

Is the cutoff for '64/'65 correct? I was under the impression that car #101 was the last for '64 and that mine (#111) was the 10th off the line in '65. It's gone to the head of the list? Interesting -CTH


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 12/31/2005 20:54:57
Message:

Charles,
The figures quoted by Tim are the same as appear in James Taylor's "A collector's guide" Vol 2. I think the confusion relates to the inclusion in Tim's figures of the LWB cars. One was made in 1963 and 8 in 1964, which when added to 2 SWB in 1963 and 99 SWB in 1964 give the quoted figures. So by the end of 1964 there had been 101 SWB cars made. It is my understanding that the LWB cars were NOT given a separate sequence of chassis numbers from the SWB cars, so yours would have been the first chassis in 1965. If the LWB cars were given a separate number sequence, then your understanding would be correct.
Art


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 12/31/2005 21:40:34
Message:

The pressure reservoir that both Randy and Ron refer to has now been made in at least 3 forms and Karl M is probably the best person to discuss this. As Randy said, the first version was spherical and, at least in my car #178 RHD, placed in the engine bay at the front on the left. I am not certain what the American term "kick panel" means unless it refers to the sheetmetal to either side of the radiator (Randy,is that where you kicked a veteran when it wouldn't start when you cranked it???) Perhaps it's a horse and buggy term.

Anyway, the bracketing was still there in #178, but by the time I got the car it had the piston type fitted under the front crossmember below the bumper. The part number for the original accumulator was 100 800 00 19 and that of the piston type that replaced it, 100 800 03 19. The change over occurred at #369 but, as was often the case, the second version was also fitted to some earlier chasses, 355, 358, 359, 361, 362 and 367. Someone has written all the modification numbers in my 600 parts manual and this was modification #19129.

When the piston reservoir on #178 started to leak, my mechanics sent it to a local hydraulics repairer who were certain they could fix it. They failed, and as a result of that, as Ron said, the hydraulic pump was subjected to constant demand and uncontrolled pressures and failed. Fortunately, I had a spare. Karl has spoken about this very important issue at one or more of the meets as has Helmut Schattenkirschner. As the price of a replacement piston reservoir was prohibitive, my mechanic, having noted the original bracketing in the engine bay, suggested we try going back to a spherical setup using 2 Bosch spheres. These spheres that 6.9 owners are familiar with, are a stock item and come in a range of sizes for different pressure ranges and applications (the 6.9 ones are toward the smaller end of the range). So the car has been running perfectly with this modification ever since.

You can imaging my surprise when, at the last Meet held at Karl's, he showed us the latest version from M-B of the accumulator which is a two sphere setup to mount on the piston reservoir bracket. The only other thing I would note is that cars with Landaulet rooves had a different pressure reservoir part number 100 800 07 19. I don't know what the difference was.
Art


Reply author: randy crooks
Replied on: 12/31/2005 23:27:42
Message:

Art,
You are 100% right as to the location of the sphere,just below the electric solenoid for the air horn.I don't know why I would call it the kick panel,that's the cover over the area where on a (lhd) car your left foot would rest this panel would cover the air conditioner fan on a (rhd) 6.3 ,sorry for the mistake.But your suggestion of a place to "kick" was a funny one.

Randy.


Reply author: Oliver
Replied on: 01/16/2006 15:07:27
Message:

Hi,
I just talked with Helmut Schattenkirchner because the accumulator in my car is broken (only 2-3 complete window moves versus the 25-30 that it should sustain). According to him it's a must if you don't want to kill the pump. The spheres from a 6.9 are only spec'd up to 80 psi whereas the 600 pump delivers up to 200 psi! He said he would definitely not recommend going down that road. He charges about 1,100.- EUR for rebuilding the accumulator, and claims he has been rebuilding them for 18 years now and none of them has failed again... so I guess those 1,100.- EUR are well spent...


Reply author: Tim Hartney
Replied on: 01/16/2006 17:39:54
Message:

Oliver,
Is yours the early or late style accumulator?


Reply author: Oliver
Replied on: 01/17/2006 01:33:46
Message:

Tim, my car is #402, so it already has the cylindrical accumulator... HS said the early styls accumulator cannot be repaired, so the newer style one has to be retrofitted...

Oliver


Reply author: rialto9
Replied on: 01/17/2006 05:54:35
Message:

Just a few comment on the subject of the piston accumulator.


I would have to agree with Helmut Sch. and his advice against installing 6.9 HPF accumulators. If cost is a concern there is the option of fitting an accumulator from the Bosch range of accumulators (contact your local Bosch Hydraulic service) .
I have some unrepaired original 600 accumulators at my saltmine because Bosch had a cheaper solution in form of the so called bladder accumulator. (part No. 0 531 012 702)
This unit looks like a bomb and fits in the original piston accumulator space. It was mounted on a custom made alum/bracket and bolted to the old steel bracket with 4 rubber mountings (air cleaner buffers)
This type of accumulator is available from Bosch Hydr. in various sizes -
it depends on the storage volume required. It is not a diaphragm type, the name bladder accum. is used because the bladder is replacable. When it is ruptured it is pulled out and simply replaced with an new one (very convenient+cheap).

Other hydraulic manufacturers have similar units - but in my case Bosch was very helpful
and another workshop here had also used the Bosch type before. Bosch also supplies
the correct clamps for some of their accumulators.

Regards
from Western Australia
Walter
Mercedes Car Clinic


Reply author: randy crooks
Replied on: 01/17/2006 12:28:01
Message:

Walter,
That's great advice for 600 owners,I had no idea that bosch sold replacements for the accumulators.They must work on the same principal as residential water storage/pressure tanks (people with well water).The water is pumped into a stretchy rubber bag inside a steel tank,as the bag is stretched from the pump pressure it is counter acted by air pressure inside the steel tank,acting as a cushion or spring.Do you know what is used for the counter pressure on the bosch units,is it still nitrogen or just air.

Thanks, Randy.



Reply author: Oliver
Replied on: 01/17/2006 13:34:05
Message:

Walter, thanks for the insight! What's the price of such a replacement accumulator?

Oliver


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 01/17/2006 19:04:18
Message:

Walter,
That's just the Bosch spheres that I am talking about in my post above on Dec 31, that are working well on #178. I presumed they were a larger version of the suspension spheres in the 6.9. Sorry if I caused confusion by mentioning the 6.9, that is my ignorance. I did not intend for anyone to use 6.9 spheres. Based on the location and remaining bracketing in the engine bay of #178, the original 600 accumulator fitted to the first 350 odd 600's must have either been one of these or something very similar. Do you know?
Art


Reply author: rialto9
Replied on: 01/18/2006 05:18:13
Message:

Yes, the basic principle is the same as the water pressure system you use in Canada.
The storage medium in the Bosch bladder accumulator is also (as in the diaphragm or piston
units) nitrogen gas. The Bosch unit mentioned earlier is also a 1 litre unit - same as the original ATE piston accumulator. Bosch has also a number of diaphragm units (spheres) that will all work, providing they can withstand the filling pressure required and have sufficient oil volume.
There are lots of other hydraulic manufacturers (Layer UK) that can all supply more or less the same thing.
For a 1 litre bladder unit I would have to pay approx. AUS $ 700.-- today (trade price). 1999 when we started to use Bosch bladder accumulators it was only about AUS $ 520.--

The only other thing one needs to do is to make a suitable adapter to transfer the check valve from the old piston accumulator to the new unit (as they do not come with ch/valves).

If you want to find out more info on Bosch hydraulics do a search in the Bosch homepage under Bosch Automation Technology.

Good luck,

Walter


Reply author: randy crooks
Replied on: 01/18/2006 07:45:42
Message:

Walter,
Thank you for the info.
Randy.


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 01/19/2006 02:27:09
Message:

Walter,
I checked with Peter McIntosh, my mechanic about the Bosch sphere in #178. When we had talked about it several years ago when the job was done, he had talked about a twin sphere set up but in fact he ended up using a single large Bosch sphere as recommended by Bosch as it fitted directly to the triangular bracketing already in place on the cotton reel rubbers (as per the air cleaner as you mentioned) below the air suspension master valve in the left side of the engine bay. Interesting that a similar solution to the problem was arrived at on opposite sides of the country!
Art


Reply author: rialto9
Replied on: 01/21/2006 17:18:32
Message:

Full details of diaphragm or bladder accumulators can be viewed at

http://www.boschrexroth.com/business_units/brm/sub_websites/brm_catalog/en/Accumulators/Accumulators_Accessories/xM_brm_61701.jsp

click on data sheets.

Walter


Reply author: Sam
Replied on: 09/29/2006 15:16:06
Message:

I used to work with bladder accumulators a great deal. They are very reliable and can easily be pressured up with Nitrogen at many better tire shops. Air will do, but the mostiure in it will cause the pressure to expand or contract with the ambiant tempature.

These do need to have the nitrogen pressure checked now and then as it will tend to bleed off over time. This is no big deal and is usually done once or twice a year.

Most are also very easy to rebuild. The inital cost is the hard part, but they can last for 50 years if well cared for although a service life of ten years before replacing the bladder is more like it.

Sam


Reply author: weayoub
Replied on: 08/28/2007 07:13:32
Message:

Hi Tim

Your article is very helpful. Do you know the serial numbers of the US and Canadien car.
My email: weayoub@cyberia.net.lb

Thank you
William



Reply author: cth350
Replied on: 10/10/2007 22:57:23
Message:

What was the production split between 4 and 6 door lwbs? -CTH


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 10/11/2007 07:28:35
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by cth350

What was the production split between 4 and 6 door lwbs? -CTH



There were made:
SWB : 2190 = 1917 LHD and 273 RHD
LWB 4 doors : 304 (incl 32 Landaulets) = 265 LHD and 39 RHD
LWB 6 doors : 124 (incl 26 Landaulets) = 104 LHD and 20 RHD.

But the total produced Landaulets is 59 = 49 LHD and 10 RHD(including Berckheim's and Pope's according a overview from the factory).

The statement from M.Trei is, that there are made 9 Presidentials. That statement is partial correct. I discovered that there are indeed 9 presidential FOURDOOR RHD Landaulets and ONE LHD presidential FOURDOOR Landaulet, according that factory overview.
So there are totaly made TEN presidential FOURDOOR Landaulets
.

But there are also made 6Doors Landaulets Presidentials.
There are made totaly 22 SIXDOOR Presidentials, 18 LHD and 4 RHD
.

The Landaulet from Count Berckheim has also the Vinnumber 100.015 and is the 12th built Landaulet. So the Pope's Landaulet must have also that vinnumber 100.015. The discovered overview from the factory also tells us that those both cars have the landauletVIN.

Armoured 100.012 : 26
Armoured 100.014 : 17
Armoured 100.016 : 1 Factory-owned and in the Museum now.

Now there is something WRONG in that factory-overview. They state that there is NO RHD SIXDOOR Pullmann with SHORT SOFTTOP, although the Sultan of Brunei had one which was converted to a AMG V12

So that Factory-overview is not for 100 % correct ..........


Reply author: cth350
Replied on: 10/11/2007 15:18:09
Message:

And to partially answer my own question, I found this statement on www.m-100.de ...

Insgesamt wurden bis 1981 2677 Fahrzeuge gebaut: 2190 Limousinen, 428 Pullmann (304 Viertürer und 124 Sechstürer) und 59 Landaulets (12 Sechstürer). 44 Fahrzeuge wurden gepanzert.


Thx -CTH


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 04/07/2008 19:30:53
Message:





This was an earlier official Overview from the factory-archive, but it is clearly NOT correct c.q. complete. !!!
Everybody knows the pictures from the Sultan of Brunei, who had a 6door-RHD-Landaulet with short fouldingroof converted/modernised to a V12 AMG.

But according to this statistic Overview from the factory there was NON 6d-RHD-Landaulet produced with short fouldingroof ever. ?????
How about that !!! It looks like they don't have all the datacards with the belonging specifications with special ownerdemands anymore.
Chris Johnson also can't get his Auftragspecification anymore from his black 600, while they can't FIND it in the archives.


A friend of mine confrontated the factory-archive with those failure in the overview and they searched for 2 hours for facts. They would not (or could not?) give a new overview from the correct landauletproduction (protection former owners ??).


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 04/07/2008 19:48:31
Message:

Some USA 600 have the "black boxes" for emissionregulating on the 8:1 CR motors.

Those black boxes you can find :
USA delivered 600 Limousine - 100.012, 100.014, 100.015 and 100.016 - from chassis # 001435 up to # 001920.

The later USA delivered 600's don't have those black boxes anymore, but imho still the reduced 8:1 CR.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/13/2008 19:49:08
Message:

Thanks investigation of Giovanni Verzoletto, we have now a (still incomplete but informativ)

List of special Kundenwunch-options

KW-Options:

KW 05954/02 Wechselsprechanlage (ohne Monoradio)
Intercom




KW 05971/02 Haltegriff über Handschuhkasten
holdinggrip over the glovebox




KW 05974/01 Steckdose unter Instrumententafel links u rechts
Power-point beneath dashboard left a right
KW 05974/02 Steckdose am Mittelwand links u rechts
Power-point in divider left a right
KW 05974/06 Steckdose unter Instrumententafel rechts
Power-point beneath dashboard right




KW 05985/01 Klapptisch an Fahrerlehne links oder rechts bezw beidseitig furniert
Folding table left and right in wood furneerd




KW 05985/02 Klapptisch links und rechts mit Leder bezogen.
Folding table left and right with leather.




KW 05997/01 Plattenspieler Philips Mignon in Trennwand
single record player Philips Mignon in divider




KW 05997/03 Plattenspieler Philips Mignon und Tonband Uher Report 4000L in Trennwand
singleplayer Philips Mignon and Tapedeck Uher Report 4000L in divider




KW 05992/01 Antenne Hinterkotflügel links; Halterung Autotelefon Kofferraum links
Antenna Tail left; Holder Auto telephone trunk left




KW 09419/05 Deckel fuer Tasche verschliessbar fuer Fondtuer links u rechts
lockable Lid for glove box for rear door left a right




KW 09420 Wegfall des Typenschildes am Heckdeckel = Code 260
less ordered Type badge on the trunk lid = code 260




KW 09421 Diplomatenschild links beleuchtet; Nationalitätenschild rechts auf Tankklappe unbeleuchtet
Diplomatic sign left lightened; Nationality sign right on tank lid not lightened




KW 09423/04 Vorhang über Fondtür links u rechts
Hanging curtains brfore rear doors










KW 09423/16 Vorhang an Trennwand im Fond oben und unten gefuehrt
gliding curtains on divider

KW 09423/17 Vorhang an Fondtuer links und rechts oben und unten gefuehrt
Curtains on rear door left and right above and beneath railed







KW 09434/02 Tonband Philips Kassettenrecorder 330/01 für Aufnahme u Wiedergabe
Tapedeck Philips Cassette recorder 330/01 for recording and playing




KW 09434/05 Halterung fuer Tonband Mikrophon u Kassetten unter Instrumententafel ohne Klima
Holder for Tapedeck micro and Cassette beneath dashboard without airco




KW 09435/03 Fernsehgerät Sony 13 cm TV 500 UET
Sony TV 500 UET 13 cm




KW 09437/01 Fahnenstange (mit Stern) auf die Kühlermaske auf Mitte de Motorhaube montiert
Flag holder (with Star) on the chrome Radiator cowl mid side the Motor hood mounted
KW 09437/02 Fahnenstange (mit Knopf) auf die Kühlermaske auf Mitte de Motorhaube montiert
Flag holder (with Knob) on the chrome Radiator cowl mid side the Motor hood mounted


KW 09443/04 Fernsehgerät Sony 9-306 UM
television Sony 9-306 UM







KW 09445/03 Halterung und Fernsehantenne auf Kofferraumdeckel
Holder and TV-antenna on trunk lid




KW 09453/01 Radiofernbedienung am mittlerer Kastensäule links
Radio remote control on middle door pillar left




KW 09453/02 Radiofernbedienung am mittlerer Kastensäule rechts
Radio remote control on middle door pillar right




KW 09453/03 Radiofernbedienung mit Schalter für Gegensprechanlage am mittlerer Kastensäule links
Radio remote control with Switch for Intercom on middle door pillar left

KW 09453/04 Radiofernbedienung mit Schalter für Gegensprechanlage am mittlerer Kastensäule rechts
Radio remote control with Switch for Intercom on middle door pillar right




KW 09453/06 Radiofernbedienung an Rueckseite Kühlbox zwischen Fahrer- u Beifahrersitz
Radio remote control backside bar between frontseats

KW 09453/08 Radiofernbedienung an rechter Fondtürverkleidung
Radio remote control in right rear door, aschtray moved upwards




KW 09466/01 Klappsitz mitte im W100.016
folding seat middle W100.016










KW 09470/02 Pompadourtaschen in Leder an den Fahrerlehnen links, rechts oder beidseitig
Pompadour bags in Leader on front seat left, right or both sides




KW 09470/03 Pompadourtaschen in Velours an den Fahrerlehnen links, rechts oder beidseitig
Pompadour bags in Velours on front seat left, right or both sides




KW 09481 Loch für Antennebefestigung im Hinterkotflügel links un Montage der angelieferte Antenne
whole for antenna left rear and mounting delivered antenna

KW 09483/02 2en Hörergarnitur in Trennwand rechts oder links
second telephone hook in divider right or left




see part II next page


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 06/13/2008 21:40:55
Message:

Paul, I truly appreciate all the effort it takes in conjunction with Giovanni's efforts to get this info together and post it. But If I could have one more wish before I die (besides a perfect 600) it would be to be able read it without having to spend a week getting cozy with my German to English dictionary.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: mbz63
Replied on: 06/14/2008 03:30:40
Message:

Dear Chris,
during the next days we will prepare an english and updated version, also because I don't speak german too...

I also thank Wilfried and his brother Thomas from Germany who provide us essential information to prepare this list. Hopefully in the near future we will add also pictures to every KW option.

We kindly ask every 600 owner who has a datacard and especially a produktion order to forward us a copy in order to go on with this project.
Thanks.



[quote]Originally posted by Chris Johnson

Paul, I truly appreciate all the effort it takes in conjunction with Giovanni's efforts to get this info together and post it. But If I could have one more wish before I die (besides a perfect 600) it would be to be able read it without having to spend a week getting cozy with my German to English dictionary.

Chris Johnson


Reply author: rialto9
Replied on: 06/15/2008 08:25:26
Message:

Art,
the ball accumulator (or spheres - as you call them) used in the first cars are like the
accumulators used in the 6.9 or the common MB level control system fitted to W123,124,126
cars etc. Only the oil volume and pressure varies.
The Bosch bladder accumulator, mentioned earlier looks like a piston accum. but is actually
fitted with a replacable bladder. Oliver, such a Bosch unit is available here for approx AUS $700.--
I'll try to enclose an image. (no, it didn't work)

Happy motoring
Walter


Reply author: Stu Hammel
Replied on: 06/15/2008 09:48:44
Message:

Paul and Giovanni,

Thanks so much for this great effort. I will announce the data card project at the M-100 Meet next week, so perhaps more cards will be sent.

Best regards,
Stu


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/15/2008 12:35:59
Message:

Hi Stu,

no thanks,
but wait untill Gerrett has time to update the registry. We have already picturised > 10 %

here are again two cars special Kundenwüsche:

with a folding (sun)roof




with divider and a glass roof for a client




More details are not know (yet )

The KW-Option overview is now for this moment ready and complete. We still have some pictures from several choisepossibilities for the interior, but they have, as far as we now know, no own KW-number(s).


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/16/2008 19:52:47
Message:

KW-Options part II


KW 09516 Fondsitz geteilt
Rear seats sectioned / separated




KW 09517/03 Leseleuchte flexibel. Anordnung rechts oder links im Fond SWB
Reading light flexible right or left rear SWB




KW 09517/04 Leseleuchten Flexilight links und rechts im Fond an Dachramen hinten SWB
Reading lights flexible left and right in rear SWB on roof hight behind -foto see above-

KW 09517/05 Leseleuchte flexibel. Anordnung links oder rechts im Fond LWB
05 Reading light flexible left or right in rear compartment LWB -foto see above-

KW 09517/06 Leseleuchten Flexilight links und rechts im Fond an Dachramen hinten LWB
Reading light flexible left and right in back compartment on roof hight behind LWB -foto see above-

KW 09517/07 Leseleuchten Flexilight an Mittelsäule links oder rechts SWB
Reading light flexible on middle door pillar links or right for SWB




KW 09557/01 Landaulet mit Verdeck bis Mittelwand
Landaulet with LONG soft top till divider













KW 09577/02 Halogen Nebellampen
Halogen smog lights




KW 09582/04 Halterung für Tonband Becker Stereo Kassette vorne an Bar zwischen Fahrersitze
Holder for Stereo Radio Cassette in front on Bar










KW 09582/05 Halterung fuer Tonband Becker Stereo Cassetten in Trennwand oberhalb Bar
Holder for Tapedeck Becker Stereo Cassette in divider above Bar




KW 09582/08 Halterung für Tonband Becker Stereo Kassette hinten an Bar zwischen Fahrersitze
Holder for Becker stereo cassetteplayer for backside bar between frontseats










KW 09590/01 Höhenmesser im Handschuhkastendeckel
altitude meter in gloveboxlid (picture added)




KW9590/?? altimeter, here mounted in the middle of the steeringwheel ( nd a trippmaster) (text + picture added)




KW 09596/03 Klimaanlage ohne Kühlbox zwischen Fahrersizte untern Armlehne
Airco without coolbox between front seats beneath armrest




KW 09609/01 Halterung für Philips 2600 Autokassetenspieler mit Kurzwellenadapter auf Kühlluftkanal
Holder for Philips 2600 Auto cassette player with short wave adapter above airco channel




KW 09609/03 Tonband Philips 2600 Kassettenspieler
Tapedeck Philips 2600 Cassette player

KW 09609/04 Halterung für Tonband an Rückseite Bar, zwischen Fahrer- u Beifahrersitz
Holder for Tapedeck backside Bar, between front seats




KW 09636/02 Tonbandgerät Gründig C200 in Ablageschale im Fond
Tapedeck Grundig C200 in glove box in back compartment




KW 09641 Zwischensitz mit Bargehäuse und Bedienteil
Seat between front seats with Bar and remote control




KW 09648/01 Mittlere klappbare Armlehne im Fond als Kosmetikkasten – leer
Armrest in rear as (cosmetic) case – empty [note: pic from Laundaulet]



KW 09648/02 Mittlere klappbare Armlehne im Fond als Kosmetikkasten mit Rasierapp Remington
Armrest in rear as cosmetic case with electric shaver Remington
KW 09648/03 Mittlere klappbare Armlehne im Fond als Kosmetikkasten mit Rasierapp Braun Sixtant
Armrest in rear as cosmetic case with electric shaver Braun Sixtant








KW 09648/04 2. Höhrergarnitur in klappbarer Armlehne
second telephone hook in rear armrest







KW 09648/18 Armlehne klappbar im Fond als Kasten mit Halterung fuer Tonband-Cassetten
Armrest in rear as Case with holder for Cassette tapes




KW 09651 Parfumflacons in Fondtuerbelag Ascher dafür höher versetzt
Parfum flacons in rear door, ashtray higher mounted










KW 09653 Einbau Fernsehgerät. Bediengerät mit Hörergarnitur. Tonbandgerät und Microphon für Weschelsprechanlage. In Holzgehause Mittelwand. Lautsprecheranordnung Je 1 Lautsprecher links u rechts in Ablagefach
television mounting. Remote-control with telephone hook. Tape-deck and micro for Intercom in wood from the divider. Loudspeakers: Once 1 Loudspeaker left and right in glove boxes




KW 09654 Halter mit Bediengerät und Hörergarnitur (schwarz) in Konsole auf Kühlluftkanal
holder with remote control and listninghook (black) in console on aircochannel

KW 09655 Je 1 Lautsprecher links u rechts auf Hutablage
one loudspeakers on each side-end from the hoodshelf

KW 09655/1? Lautsprecher auf Hutablage Mitte Wagen. Kabelverlegung bis Radioausschnitt Armaturenbrett
speaker on hoodshelf middle. Cablewiring to radioplace in dashboard

KW 09656 Halterung für Gerätesatz im Kofferraum links
holder for .. in trunk left

KW 09671 Wegfall Trennwand im LWB – Fahrersitze hydraulisch verstellbar
Removed divider in LWB – Front seats hydraulic adjustable
I: 100-016-12-001024






II: 100-016-12-001267






III: 100-016-12-002081






IV: 100-016-12-001353







KW 09705/03 Sicherheitsgurte mit Aufrollautomatic (Kangol) für Fahrersitze li u re
automiatic safetybelts on frontseats
KW 09705/07 Sicherheitsgurte mit Aufrollautomatic (Kangol) für Fondsitze li u re
automiatic safetybelts on rearseats

KW 09711/02 Tonbandgeraet Pioneer Stereo
Tapeplayer Pioneer Stereo

KW 09711/11 Halterung fuer Tonbandgereat und Kassetten auf Kuehlungskanal vorn
Holder for Tapeplayer and cassettes on aircochannel front




KW 09739/01 Tonbandgeraet Becker Stereo Cassette mit Verstaerker
Tapeplayer Becker Stereo Cassette with amplifier

KW 09763/01 Umschaltanlage fuer Kombination Stereo Empfangs- mit Stereo Tonbandgeraet
atomatic switchunit for combinatio Stereo Radio and stereo Tapeplayer

KW 09777/01 Lautsprecher Schaltschema fuer Stereo Tonband
speaker wiring diagram for stereo tapedeck

KW 09777/02 Lautsprecher Schaltschema fuer Stereo Empfangs- und -Tonbandgeraet (mit Trennwand) mit je 2 Lautsprecher im Fahrer- und Fondraum
speaker wiring diagram for stereo radio- and tapedeck with two speakers in front and two speakers in the rear


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/16/2008 20:19:33
Message:

Sonder Ausstattungcodes:


SA 983/2-198 Hinterachsuebersetzung 1:3.42
rear axle ratio 1:3.42

SA 10108 Winkelmesser und Auswuchtgewichte
corner-meter and balance weights

SA 55593 Wegfall der Kopfstützen für Fondlehne = code 883
Removed headrests for rear seats = code 883




SA 55594 Wegfall der Gardinen an der Heckscheibe
no curtains on rear window

SA 55068/1 artz? Koffer im Fond
medical? box in rear

SA 55780/01 Lautsprecher auf Hutablage links u rechts
speakers on hoodshelf left a right

SA 55780/02 Lautsprecher auf Instrumententafel links u rechts
Loudspeaker on dashboard left a right







SA 56032/09 Radio Becker Grand Prix LMKU Stereo mit Fernbedienung an Rückseite Fahrersitz rechts
Radio Becker Grand Prix LMKU Stereo with remotecontrol on backside fronbtseat right

SA 56109/01 Antenne Hinterkotflügel links
Antenna rearwing left

SA 56110/02 Autotelefon Becker AT 160S mit zweiter Sprechstelle
Autotelefon Becker AT 160S with second hook
SA 56110/05 Anschlusskabelsatz Autotelefon Becker AT 160S mit zweiter Sprechstelle
Wiring for Autotelefon Becker AT 160S with second hook
SA 56110/09 Einbauteilesatz Autotelefon Becker AT 160S
mountingunit for Autotelefon Becker AT 160S


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/16/2008 20:27:16
Message:

Choises on the orderingcatalog for the 600:

Code 214 : Bar in Trennwand eingebaut
Bar in divider build in partition panel




Code 251 : serienmässige Radiofernbedienung bei Becker Grand Prix
radio Becker grand prix with remote control and automatic antenna




Code 253 : Gegensprechanlage
intercom

Code 306 : Bar zwischen den Fahrersitze ohne Trennwand
airconditioning, bar between front seat without divider


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/18/2008 19:23:39
Message:

The statement:`"there are only 2 LWB without DIVIDER in the WORLD" is false.

See already catched pictures of FOUR different 6d-LWB-cars with KW-option 9671 (without divider).

There is one blue with red leather (no 1024), a second white with blue leather (no 1267) and a third middle blue with perchament leather (no 2081). Just added the fourth with Perchament leather but RED carpets (no 1353).



Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/23/2008 11:02:49
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL



with divider and a glass roof for a client




More details are not know (yet )



Paul, the glass roofed car was built for Nubar Gulbenkian, a rather eccentric fellow, for his use in the south of France. It also had an extra speedometer for the rear passengers set into the center of the divider. I saw it for sale on a French website a few years ago. It is dark blue.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/23/2008 11:14:57
Message:

Hi Mike,

I remember that picture with that extra Odometer in the divider, but the Owner's name I did not remember anymore

Some tell the roof was build by Chapron, but it looks to me it was a worksdelivered option ??
Do you know more about that ??

Greetings from the Netherlands


Reply author: mbz63
Replied on: 06/23/2008 11:35:25
Message:

I remember also a couple of pictures of the interior .... and it was written that the roof was from Chapron.
Unfortunetly I did not save the photos....


[quote]Originally posted by paul-NL

Hi Mike,

I remember that picture with that extra Odometer in the divider, but the Owner's name I did not remember anymore

Some tell the roof was build by Chapron, but it looks to me it was a worksdelivered option ??
Do you know more about that ??


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/23/2008 12:01:22
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL


Some tell the roof was build by Chapron, but it looks to me it was a worksdelivered option ??
Do you know more about that ??



The car was described by Herr Pfander when he visited the M-100 meet a few years ago. I think he said Chapron did the roof, but it was a disaster because the interior would become unbearably hot. The roof was fitted when it was a new car. I think it also has ostrich leather seats.


Reply author: n/a
Replied on: 06/23/2008 15:09:35
Message:

I do remember hearing that there was a cooling issue, and I can imagine that would be a big deal in the south of France. That roof is an automotive wonder, though, I've never seen another one like it!

I would love to know more about the roof. Is this car documented in the 600 book? Does anyone know it's whereabouts?


Peter in St. Louis
6.3 #1349


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 06/23/2008 17:06:46
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by benz_head

I would love to know more about the roof. Is this car documented in the 600 book? Does anyone know it's whereabouts?



If I remember correctly, the roof is some type of plexiglass, and not actual plate glass. Like I said, the car was offered for sale in France a few years ago, but no idea what happened to it since. The for sale page had several pictures, but I neglected to save them.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/23/2008 18:24:48
Message:

here is a similar car from that fellow:
















Reply author: dbtk
Replied on: 06/30/2008 23:31:44
Message:

Paul, thanks for the option descriptions and photos. Is there a code for the rear door curtains as seen in the parfum dispenser photos?

1972 600 SWB No.2137
1988 Jaguar V12 Vanden Plas
1997 Porsche 911 Turbo
2006 MINI Cooper S Convertible
2007 S550


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/01/2008 03:58:39
Message:

Yepp, there is
KW 09423/17 , see in part I on page 2


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/22/2008 17:43:42
Message:

KW-Options part III.

In the brochure (sept 1969) for ordering a 600 are four types listed:
Ausfuehrung A:
(100.012) Limousine with wheelbase 3200 mm, 4door







Ausfuehrung B:
(100.014) Limousine with wheelbase 3900 mm, vis-a-vis seats - 4door







Ausfuehrung C:
(100.016) Limousine with wheelbase 3900 mm, fouldingseats in drive direction, 6door







Ausfuehrung D:
(100.015) Landaulet with wheelbase 3900 mm, vis-a-vis seats, 4 door




Sonderausfuehrung
Ausfuehrung D:
(100.015) Landaulet with wheelbase 3900 mm, foulding seats in drive direction, 6 door







Sonderausfuehrung
KW 09557/1
Ausfuehrung D:
(100.015) Landaulet (Softftop till divider) wheelbase 3900 mm,
--- vis a vis seats 4door








Sonderausfuehrung
KW 09557/1
Ausfuehrung D:
(100.015) Landaulet (Softftop till divider) wheelbase 3900 mm,
--- foulding seats in drive direction 6 door



Note this is Tito's car, recognisable by the specific Flagholders on the fenders








And last the choise of a Divider in a SWB




For ordering 600 type it was necessary to mention the six digits between the brackets, which was the factory internal Baumustercode.


****************************************************************
Note :
On picture : "Ausfuehrung D:
(100.015) Landaulet with wheelbase 3900 mm, vis-a-vis seats, 4 door"
You see that the Airinlet above the rearwheel has NO Chrome. So that is a picture from the FIRST produced Landaulet. This car had an extra chromed Air-inlet behind the softtop on the trunk.









Look also the STRAIGHT connection between the softtop and the roof. It has a about 7 cm chromed connectionfield. So has the Pope's.
Later models have a much smaller connection from the softtop


****************************************************************
rare, but untill now unindentified KW-number
Foulding Seats in the Vis a Vis stands.








here in the RED BARON:




the Pope's Landaulet had them also Vis a Vis









and an other rare KW-option in the first factory owned "panzer":








Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 07/22/2008 20:19:35
Message:

Paul, is that second car with the light brown velour the Pope car?


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/22/2008 20:31:12
Message:

Yepp , Mike that is Pope's Paul VI's Landaulet


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 07/22/2008 22:00:33
Message:

I've always liked the dimensions of the Pope's car. With the long rear doors instead of the standard LWB configuration it looks like a really big sedan rather than a chauffer driven strecthed car.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
109.018-12-000010
109.018-12-000019
109.018-12-003834
www.300SE.org


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/23/2008 09:41:46
Message:

the pope's Landaulet has an 70 mm raised roof and 256 mm longer doors in the back. That makes it looks less long.




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/23/2008 18:54:31
Message:

For ordering a mighty Mercedes 600 they had a "Booklet" with various leather, carpet and velour examples:
















Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 07/23/2008 21:27:34
Message:

Maybe if I got about 50 of those books, I'd have enough brown velour to redo my car.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/25/2008 15:02:38
Message:

There are many people who are mentioning worng productionnumbers for the Landaulet:

So I will recapitulate the factory numbers, (although provely wrong for the shortsofttops RHD)

Shortsofttop: 1 LHD SWB (1967 Berckheim), 16 LHD and 5 RHD 4-doors and 4 RHD and 0 RHD 6-doors (but the RHD softtop 6-door AMG from the Sultan of Brunei is prouve of wrong factory statistics)
Total Shortsofttops = 26 ; 21 LHD and 5 RHD.

Longsofttop: 1 LHD LWB (1965 Pope's), 9 LHD and 1 RHD 4-doors and 18 LHD + 4 RHD 6-doors
Total Longsofttops = 33 ; 28 LHD and 5 RHD

Also a common wrong number of LWB 6 doors without divider. Often menioned is 2 cars in the world, but, there are at least FOUR ... ( see page 3)


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 07/25/2008 15:55:49
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

0 RHD 6-doors (but the RHD softtop 6-door AMG from the Sultan of Brunei is prouve of wrong factory statistics)


The Sultan was never shy about doing major modifications (V-12 600), so perhaps this car was converted from LHD ?


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/25/2008 17:08:17
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

0 RHD 6-doors (but the RHD softtop 6-door AMG from the Sultan of Brunei is prouve of wrong factory statistics)

The Sultan was never shy about doing major modifications (V-12 600), so perhaps this car was converted from LHD?


Sorry Mike, I edited first your Posting by pressing on the wrong button !. So your Posting says it was edited by me. I tried to correct it

Definitly NOT.

The "original" VIN is 10001522001743. That tells enough. is n't it ??
The employe from the factory Archives confrontated with this Vin and a picture of a 6door with short softtop, disappeared for more then 2 hours in the catacombes ......
After returning he could/would/might not make a new(er better) overview.

It seems that the Sultan had a "contract/agreement", that not ANY statement about to him delivered cars might/could be done .....
So he let make several stationcars, which were made for HIM only.
The factory had also a reason not to tell. How to explain, to a customer, that the Sultan had about 5 special for him build stationcars and they won't NEVER deliver it to you ......








Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 07/25/2008 17:17:43
Message:

I know of one SWB 600 that was converted into a Landaulet.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 07/25/2008 17:23:48
Message:

There are more.
I think I know that car in Germany, which was made very well and nice (Herrn Trausel). But the Vin is hard to change









So David Blackmore owns a 69LWB4d turned to a Landaulet. That is the wellknown black with upright back windows. But the Vin will be 100.014.12.001abc








Note: missing chrome trim at the bottom of the softtop. And the rear red markinglight is to far backwards.





and an other one on the auction 99 in Las Vegas



Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/19/2008 16:48:21
Message:

Some telephon-types

Becker:




rear Becker or Telefunken:




Lorenz:




TeKaDe:




Telefunken:




Telefunken backcompartment:



Reply author: 109056
Replied on: 09/19/2008 17:30:55
Message:

I have also a book but it for all car (114/115, 108/109, 111, 113 and 600)








1970 300sel 3.5 #4844
1976 450sel 6.9 #1210
1976 450sel 6.9 #0422 for spare
1977 450sel 6.9 #3381 motor


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 09/29/2008 12:53:29
Message:

This is an unusual radio remote setup for a Pullmann. The car also has a sunroof over the rear compartment.




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/29/2008 14:49:03
Message:

Hi Mike, well seen,

But so unusual is that not, while ergonomic the best place to install in a LWB. If it was put in the barsection/divider the "director" could only use that red pushbutton for the intercom or radioremotecontrol when he leaves his seat, because nobody has so long arms to reach to that middlesection !!

Do you know the Vin of that car ??

By the way. I have the same in my "SWB", and there it is only placed above the bar in the middlesection. That is ergonomic better while both passengers can use all these buttons. So the reardoors have both the same buttons, for :
a. Left or right rear window
b. the sunroof
c. the divider window
d. the sliding rearseat
























Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 09/29/2008 15:46:35
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

Do you know the Vin of that car ??



10001412002031

http://mechatronik-gmbh.de/en/available_vehicles_2.htm


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/29/2008 16:01:43
Message:

Ahhh, thanks,
we have that Vin already , but already so many stored (700MB), that I can't reconstruct every posted picture to it own Vin ...

It should be time Gerrett makes again some additional time free for update our registry. We now have now THREEHUNDERDANDFITY Vins with picture(s). I have still here a "pint beer" he has to earn

And what do you think about the location of the remoteControl from that other offered LWB, with three fouldingseats in the middlesection:


Reply author: mbz63
Replied on: 09/29/2008 16:46:05
Message:

Very rare the remote control on right rear door, I saw only on the car 1163.


quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

And what do you think about the location of the remoteControl from that other offered LWB, with three fouldingseats in the middlesection:




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/29/2008 16:57:39
Message:

Hi Giovanni,

that is the SIXdoor 1260 ...... with a "mono unit" in a nonsunroof car ...


Reply author: mbz63
Replied on: 09/30/2008 06:20:21
Message:

Yes Paul, I mean... sixdoor 1163 has the same equipment (no sunroof, mono Becker radio with remonte control on rear right door...) as 1260.


quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

Hi Giovanni,

that is the SIXdoor 1260 ...... with a "mono unit" in a nonsunroof car ...


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 10/29/2008 15:14:38
Message:

Giovanni attended me on new pictures from the Nubar-Gulbenkian car.

Here they are:

































It seems to be in Italy and for sale ???


Reply author: mbz63
Replied on: 10/29/2008 17:16:37
Message:

It is in Portugal, for sale for 135.000 Eu.


quote:
Originally posted by paul-NL

Giovanni attended me on new pictures from the Nubar-Gulbenkian car.

Here they are:
It seems to be in Italy and for sale ???


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 11/03/2008 14:18:18
Message:

The seller claims that car has burled wallnut wood, although not any piece of wood is insidse in the car and in the interior to see .....

May be then for the airsuspension ???


Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 11/03/2008 16:38:23
Message:

Well noted! i wonder if they just a dealer,who doesn't really care what the car is,it's all a speil to sell the car.



...There are old cars,and then there are Classics..(Mercedes Benz Ad. 1999)


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/21/2009 16:24:37
Message:

So, the database on collected pictures with known Vin's has grown to about 1 Gigabyte (from 393 Vin's).
Known are now 603 Vin's including 91 from the 342 produced RHD-cars

This is mostlikely the first build car:

















Then the second one that has a divider:





























































NOTE these three cars build in 1963 all have the airinlet behind the rearwindow:




The third one has to be a [ the first produced ] LWB ......





So the three cars build in 1963 are now the above shown cars !!

And this is the last sold one (second last produced):





And this is the last produced one from 10 juni 1981 (still in factory ownership):





Reply author: needamerc
Replied on: 02/24/2009 18:34:59
Message:

Paul.
Your database is outstanding.
Eddie.


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 02/25/2009 02:28:28
Message:

Paul,
Is the divider car navy blue? I notice in the old publicity photos that not only do the black SWB and LWB cars have that grill behind the rear window, but they also have the horizontal chrome strips at the front bonnet edge like a 300SE Finnie, yet in the close up view of the black car from the front in the showroom, these chrome trims are missing. Any comment from you on this?

I, and I am sure many other Group members, greatly appreciate the time you have put into your 600 research and your generously sharing it with us on the Forum.

Thank you,
Art


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/25/2009 11:23:11
Message:

Hi Art,
no 2 is "904" darkblue as you can read in M Wiedmayers new book. That car is missing the chrome horizontal strips at the bonnet. These chrome strips were only fitted on the very first produced cars.
That is why you can conclude that the swb with these extra chrome strips MUST be the first produced, because no 2 don't have them anymore. Also the first LWB car had them (I believe the production started before they got no 2 in production and then that chrome strip was already canceled).
About the airinlet behind the rearwindow we see them on more cars. Even the first produced Landaulet has this chrome air-opening (shown for the first time in mai 1965).


Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 02/25/2009 11:49:58
Message:

quote:
About the airinlet behind the rearwindow we see them on more cars. Even the first produced Landaulet has this chrome air-opening (shown for the first time in mai 1965).


Paul, does the first Landaulet have the air vent openings in the rear fenders? I am wondering if the vent behind the rear glass was there because the factory anticipated the landaulet would not have the air vents anywhere in the roof structure, and the vent below the rear glass resolved that problem. Later, of course, the sedans had the air vents moved to the D pillars and the landaulets had the air vents in the rear fenders.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/25/2009 12:02:16
Message:

Chris,

yepp the first got those openings already, but must be fake-openings.
And the first has no chrome strips around them.




Reply author: Chris Johnson
Replied on: 02/25/2009 12:15:22
Message:

So that idea goes out the window.

I see that the rear seat cushions are completely different than the normal production seats too.

Chris Johnson
If you aren't constantly impressed with your car, then it needs fixing.
100.012-12-000790
100.012-12-000867
www.300SE.org


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/25/2009 20:49:19
Message:

Soooo Gentlemen,

Hunting for Vins an pictures I found this rare option on a W100:





You may gues what it is .....

Nobody ???
Then a additional hint:




Reply author: james lawson
Replied on: 02/27/2009 08:31:00
Message:

Is it a microphone?

jim


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/27/2009 10:51:43
Message:

Yepp. it is. This is the later factory panzered car




















Reply author: Ron B
Replied on: 02/27/2009 17:19:03
Message:

It must have been interesting listening to the secret service guys puffing and panting as they ran alongside the car ...

quote:
12-14-2004, 11:49 PM #8
Tom Hanson
MBCA Member

What the heck, try to stuff a MB 6.9 liter V8 in it. What a machine that would be..
__________________
Tom Hanson
Orange County Section


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/27/2009 19:26:00
Message:

Ron,
that car has an intercomsystem for speaking to thge passengers, but an other to speak to people outside the car (during a attaque ??). Because they had no possibility to let down the heavy windows. That common hydraulic option was not fitted in the panzerd cars.

this in particular is the (in [still] factory-ownership second) haevy panzered car with 7 cm raised roof.









The third known panzered LWB is the darkred LWB from the Shah of Iran.


Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 03/13/2009 17:44:13
Message:

Paul,
A few people on the Down Under Rally, John Freeman in particular, took a series of detail photos of the ex Bob Jane silver RHD long roof landalaut in the Lindsay Fox collection last September. They have sent them to me and I am sure none of them would mind my passing them on to you if you would send me a personal e.mail at artlove@bigpond.net.au so I can send them to you in full resolution.
Art


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/13/2009 20:54:27
Message:

Email was send to you. Thanks Art.

Here is a picture from the (parts of the) breakbooster of a 600:




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/14/2009 11:08:20
Message:










Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/14/2009 11:14:09
Message:






Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/14/2009 11:19:19
Message:










Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 04/19/2009 22:54:31
Message:

Here is the collection of the crownprins of Johor in Maleysia

TMJ stands for : Tengku Mahkota Johor




And here specific his Landaulet
















Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 04/20/2009 03:54:00
Message:

So that makes 3 RHD presidential landaulets.
Art


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 04/20/2009 09:11:18
Message:

Art, that makes FIVE from 10 produced RHD:
100-015-22-000601 Sultan v Brunei (Presidential)
100-015-22-001743 Sultan v Brunei (short softtop)
100-015-22-001942 Australie (Presidential)
100-015-22-002020 Premier South Africa (short softtop)
and this last blue one from Johor, I am still searching for that VIN.
(As I am informed correct it should be a later one from may be 1977)

Oooops,
I just now read you spoke about three PRESIDENTIAL Landaulets. So that is three from five produced RHD presidentials.

Greetings to the south and many thanks for the many detailpictures of the australian landaulet.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 04/25/2009 16:43:01
Message:

Here some custom-cars
a.












b.












c.




















d.




















e.








and an older picture from this car:




f.








g.




h.




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/29/2009 19:35:41
Message:

In the original posting was promessed a picture of the old console, but I can't add pictures in that posting. Also added a picture of the automatic closingunithook.

So here are some pictures:













This smaller gearboxtunnels switched to the bigger gearboxtunnels between Vin 790 and Vin 794 (where could be an exeption for some LWB, while longer buildtime)

The hydraulic closingunithook:





and again from an other angle:




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/30/2009 18:40:05
Message:

Older control in black:





That was in all the cars up to /until Vin 642.
except for RHD-Landaulet 601 (Sultan of Brunei) and the Vins:
615, 621, 637, 638, 639 and 640
.

Vin 642 and all the later cars had the control in regular wood.




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 06/23/2010 23:12:20
Message:

So here is car 00624, which has a unusual shift-stick ...








Reply author: neilc
Replied on: 02/13/2011 18:15:25
Message:

Considering there are a few pics earlier in the thread of these Sony TV's, look what's popped up on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Factory-Sony-Micro-TV-Mercedes-108-109-600-6-3-3-5-Limo-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e61488b8QQitemZ360342390968QQptZVintageQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories



Cristal - 1971 300 SEL 6.3 #5549, UK RHD


Reply author: FLY
Replied on: 04/13/2011 11:44:38
Message:

all pics broken down


Reply author: mtrei
Replied on: 04/13/2011 16:23:23
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by neilc

Considering there are a few pics earlier in the thread of these Sony TV's, look what's popped up on Ebay.


With most countries now broadcasting exclusively in digital, a TV like this will be little more than an expensive piece of non-functional sculpture in your car.


Reply author: cth350
Replied on: 04/13/2011 19:25:29
Message:

When the first one of those TVs showed up on ebay ages and ages ago, it sold for like 30$. I considered buying one to convert into an ignition oscilloscope. Nothing like checking the ignition behavior from behind the wheel at speed.

-CTH


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 05/31/2011 10:45:13
Message:

added a pictures of the KW-Options (only for 100.014-serie):

KW 05997/03 Uher (Reporter) Tape deck ( see page 2)

Now found some new KW-optionnumbers and SA-numbers:

KW 09481/07 : Roofantenna middle rear

KW 09740/01 : Light inside in Bar in divider

KW 09741/01 : Cassetteholder in divider rightside and no foldingtable rightside

KW 05985/09 : Foldingtable leftside divider; outside covered with leather

SA 55988/01 : Rear foglight Hella but mounted UP on the bumper left


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 11/04/2011 22:02:23
Message:

Found again a new unknown LWB (in case a 6-door version) WITHOUT DIVIDER Vin unknown, but is second series
Here is a pic: (the fifth known build ; See page 3 under KW 09671 Removed divider in LWB – Front seats hydraulic adjustable )





This car has also : KW 09466/01 Klappsitz mitte im W100.016
folding seat middle W100.016 !!

Now the search is on for its unknown VIN


Reply author: 6point3
Replied on: 05/27/2012 03:43:00
Message:

quote:
Originally posted by FLY

all pics broken down




It must have been on E-bay forever as it is still coming up today as sold for $295.
Eventually on all the links posted they will become dead, at least include a little description, or it'll become totally pointless at one time in the future....(your posting, that is....)

N L A County


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 08/23/2012 09:36:18
Message:

The 3axle Heffner car showed up by Pollmann in Bremen Germany:

In that case it was NOT wrecked ..... (but now missing the third axle)




Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 10/11/2012 16:05:47
Message:

Remarkable point for classifying:

Untill Vin 000637 these cars had a CHROMED rearmirror in the interior:





Vin 000637 and up had a black plastic rearmirror.


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 02/12/2013 00:06:08
Message:

Here is a realy clear picture of the chrome airinlet behind the rearwindow on the very very early cars: (watch also on the hoodshelf)




Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 02/12/2013 01:25:37
Message:

Also appears to have a full width wooden grill in front of the rear screen which is not in other cars.
Art


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 03/21/2013 16:47:15
Message:

Official factory data :




Reply author: Art Love
Replied on: 09/14/2013 23:10:47
Message:

Interesting. A totally disproportionately large number exported to Australia per head of population. Population of Australia at that time was about 15000000, same as New York, London or Los Angeles.
Art


Reply author: paul-NL
Replied on: 09/25/2013 14:50:22
Message:


There was Always a rumour, that for a 600 even a BED could be ordered .....

Now I got a copy of a productioncard, THAT PROOVES, THAT THAT KW-OPTION realy was ORDERED


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